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May 10, 2014 11:59:04   #
boberic wrote:
I know. The only thing is however that 2 is an irrational number. It has no square root. Therefore multiplying or dividing by the square root of 2 is not possible.


2 is irrational
square root of 2 is 1.4142136 etc it is irrational to think that that this keeps it from being usefull
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May 10, 2014 10:48:16   #
Morning Star wrote:
Instead of arguing about whether "it is true or not true" - would someone please be so kind as to explain what is meant by "xx lines per mm" and/or how that is measured in photographs? I've never before seen this kind of phrase applied to photos.
Thank you.


1) 100 lines/mm
Back in the old days of 35 mm Film
Make one or more grids of equal width black and white lines
Take picture
examine negative under microscope
Find the case where the white line is 50 % the density of the black one (or visa versa since we are using negative film)
Count the number of lines/mm at which the 50% criteria is achieved- for example 100 lines /mm

Very similar conceptually to the technique DXO uses in their widely accepted testing

2) Motion Blur
Accepting that motion blur is only one of many factors affecting picture quality

Actually blur resulting from hand holding can be evaluated quite easily using the "sharpen/shake reduction" filter found in the latest PhotoshopCC
A graphic is provided that shows the amount and direction of any motion blur
Experimentally I find that on a D800 with a 400 mm lens with latest VR on, at 1/1000 second , that with care, hand held is indistinguishable from tripod mounted

Different cameras/lenses may produce different results

Fortunately the improved hi ISO performance of modern cameras allows decent pictures in reasonable daylight conditions with these settings (IMHO)
Actually I carry a monopod in most cases
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May 8, 2014 22:11:44   #
TIFF Files are bigger since they are in a 16 bit format even tho most of these bits are never used they still take up space
Raw files are 10 or 12 or 14 bits per pixel depending on the camera and settings- A good camera can capture about 14 bits
Raw files do not necessarily "have all the data" my D800 has options for amount of compression of Raw --lossy vs lossless etc - The book says loss of quality is negligible
Standard JPEG is 8 bits per pixel with various amount of lossy compression
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Apr 29, 2014 15:23:42   #
kamrakid wrote:
Hi folks,

Here's my dilemma:
I have an FX camera with FX lenses (plus a few leftover DX lenses with no DX body). The longest lens I've got is an FX 300mm. Although I'd like to get a nice 500 or 600mm FX lens for occasional birding, that simply can't happen (remember, I'm the guy who married an accountant <grin>).

Question: With that 300mm lens, will I get better image quality by shooting with the body in DX mode (in effect turning the 300mm into a 450mm and using fewer of the camera sensor's pixels), or by shooting in FX mode and cropping the resulting image so it has the same content as the full-frame DX shot?

I'm haven't been very fond of teleconverters because of the aperture hit they cause.

The largest print I'll probably make with these images will be a 16x20". Any practical quality differences that would be noticeable in a print that size?

My brain is telling me that there'd be no observable difference, but I learned long ago to not put much trust in its advice.

Thanks,
Jim in Iowa
Hi folks, br br Here's my dilemma: br I have an F... (show quote)


OK
Since no one else seems to have directly answered the question!

300 mm is 300 mm
The central portion of your shot is EXACTLY the same whether shot in FX or DX
In DX mode the files are smaller which might be important
in FX mode you get more FOV which might be important

RE TC Your instincts are correct, with their use pictures are darker. autofocus may not work and unless you have a very large high quality sharp lens and a camera with limited pixels the resulting shot will be effectively "cropped in Camera" and magnified. with no improvement in quality.
If this feature is useful to you, as it seems too be for some on UHH, then the TC is for you. (or if you have one of the aforementioned lens/camera combinations)
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Apr 22, 2014 16:04:02   #
TheDman wrote:
Masking it in is not to imply that it was never there; it's just when you did your stacking and blending you would leave one exposure completely visible, then mask in only the space station from the successive layers so the trees don't move and the stars don't trail.


Yea!!
Someone finally answered the original question
I like this explaination
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Apr 21, 2014 14:26:54   #
photon56 wrote:
I am curious how the sensor works when I choose a smaller size. For instance, my camera is capable of shooting 24MP. If I set the size to 6MP (small), does the sensor turn off pixels or does it remove them during the save process to the memory card?


Hey this is a great question! I learned something about JPEG modes
The following is based on my D800 manual

1) Note the difference between quality (amount of JPEG Compression) and size (number of pixels)
2) In both cases it only applies if you want the camera to create a JPEG. RAW files are not affected
3) note that the different "sizes" are in an exact ratio of 3:2
So it is obvious that for example to create a "M" from a "L" one takes 9 pixels (row one column 1, row one column 2, row 1 col 3, row 2 column 1, row 2 column 2, row 3 col 3) and interpolates them, average or median or some other function to create a new pixel row 1 column 1 of the smaller size file

Since each new pixel interpolates 9 old pixels the noise will be significantly reduced (very complicated math here)
Note that no pixels are "thrown away" they are interpolated to create new pixels
3) Crop is something else again, in crop mode pixels not in the defined saved central region are thrown away

Note that for other ratios 2:1 for example as for your camera a similar algorithm applies, this works conveniently for simple whole numbers like 3:2 , 2:1 , 4:1

OOPS it is not clear how to handle the discontinuity between row 4 and 5 but it probably is not visible to the naked eye
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Apr 12, 2014 16:19:21   #
Beowulf wrote:
Just wondering if any other Hogger has run across this: I was at the local post office mailing a package, and I was asked the usual questions...any liquid, fragile, otherwise dangerous substances, etc.? Then to my surprise, she asked if there were any lithium batteries in the package, which there were not.

There were so many others waiting in line that I didn't want to delay them by asking for further information. I guess I will go back at a less busy time to ask.

I just wonder about those Hoggers who sell cameras, and the like online which do have li-ion batteries. Have they been asked this if using USPS? If so, what was the solution?
Just wondering if any other Hogger has run across ... (show quote)


Yes the post office does have rules . As I recollect it involves the number of batteries

Yes airlines (DHS) does have rules on lithium batteries, go to DHS web site. There is a limit on the number of batteries but batteries in the camera or in a battery grip are OK, but a dozen "spares" would not be OK
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Apr 12, 2014 16:06:16   #
peggyjom wrote:
I have also stacked 2x 1.4x on my 70-200 2.8l II mounted on my t2i. Suffered image quaility, but that was hand held too. You know how long of a set up that is? and I believe it was all manual but you can do it!


Hi Peggy
Assuming the lens we are talking about is the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM (it was not clear from your post)
wow that is a great lens, then following the thoughts of previous posters, it is probable that some net improved resolution could be achieved by use of a (or more than 1) TE

Did the auto focus still work with that stack?

The gist of this thread as I understand it is to determine which combinations of lenses and camera will benefit with improved resolution (not just magnification) by use of a TE

By chance did you compare shots of the same scene with the TE and without TE (digitally zoomed in computer to provide the same FOV. You mention "some degradation" but it was not clear what that was relative to
Thanks

It is good to see your post with facts rather than just opinion
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Apr 10, 2014 14:05:50   #
RRS wrote:
I'm not looking for a free lunch and it appears that you don't shoot BIF or wildlife. Tell you what , you take tour 800 with a 50mm lens out and I'll take a 400mmf/2.8 with a 1.4 and we will shoot some BIF and wildlife. Try to enlarge you shot to equal the image that I have, good luck. Another thing, how many frames per second will the 800 shoot? I'm not selling the 800 short because it's a good camera for what it does but I haven't seen anyone out there using it. Some wildlife is too dangerous to get close to and this thread is about tel-extenders. There is definitely a place for extenders and you have to buy good ones. Yes there is a price to pay but if you only have a 300mmf/2.8 and add a 2x extender for $500 is a compromise true but a hell of a lot cheaper then buying a 600mm lens and the results are pretty damn good. There are pixel counters and there are photographers who get out and shoot, I'd rather shoot!
I'm not looking for a free lunch and it appears th... (show quote)


Let us return to the original question which was (to paraphrase)
"will adding a TC to a given lens improve the ability to resolve small items such as BIF"

it was NOT

"will a long lens with TC provide better ability to resolve small items such as BIF compared to using a different short lens without TC, when said pictures are cropped to equivalent FOV in PP"

That someone would propose such a comparison speaks volumes
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Apr 10, 2014 10:24:30   #
Zero_Equals_Infinity wrote:
Tele-extenders do not increase the resolution of an image unless the resolving power of the naked lens at the aperture you are using exceeds that of the sensor.

Why?

Because a tele-extenders spreads the resolving capability of the lens over a wider area. It is really just a means of cropping at the cost of resolution and light falling on the sensor.

If I was using a low pixel density sensor, then using a tele-extender makes some sense, but only then. To use one on a camera that has the pixel density of the D800 or any of the current Dxxxx series (at 24 mp APS-C) is just silly in my books. Instead keep the extra stop or more of exposure from using the naked lens and crop afterwards.
Tele-extenders do not increase the resolution of a... (show quote)



I completely agree with this well stated post.
A TC might be of use if you have a new expensive lens and an low pixel count camera body, otherwise it will make things worse
Anyone who puts "fill the frame in the viewer with no need to crop post processing" as a higher priority than "allows smaller aperture for better FOV" or "allows faster shutter speed for less shake" or "allows lower ISO setting for more dynamic range" is not any bird photographer that I have ever met
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Apr 9, 2014 16:37:02   #
Billbobboy42 wrote:
Since the subject of tele-extenders is a frequent subject matter here, I thought I would mention an article in April's Outdoor Photographer by George Lepp, "Eagle Eyes". In an inset he demonstrated the use of multiple tele-extenders. He used a Canon 5D Mark III with an 800mm/5.6L lens. Photos were of an eagle at some distance away (don't remember how far).
1st photo - with only the 800mm
2nd " - with 1.4tc added = 1120mm
3rd " - with 2x " = 1600mm
4th " - with 2x + 1.4 = 2240mm
5th " - with 2 2x added = 3200mm
6th " - with 2 2x + 1.4 = 4800mm

So, with all three tele-extenders piggy-backed, the 4800mm image is 6 times larger than the original 800, right?

My single question is: which image would be sharper - the 800mm cropped to 6x or the 4800 as taken?

I think his demo was to illustrate what is possible, rather than suggest we have to go to those extremes to get a good telephoto shot.

Comments?
Since the subject of tele-extenders is a frequent ... (show quote)


The article nor most of the posts in this thread did not address the question , which was "did the use of TC provide a better (higher resolution) picture than that which could be achieved by simply cropping the original image in PS"

Some have suggested "it all depends" which I think is the correct answer- if your camera has enough usable pixels to display the smallest element resolvable by the lens (IE more pixels would not produce a better picture) then it is possible that a TC might produce a higher resolution picture, dependent on a host of other factors
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Apr 7, 2014 14:36:43   #
Why do you ask?
It seems that I have used my left eye for years for no apparent reason other than habit.
One might suspect that right eye is better since it centers the lens on the head/body better providing better stability
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Apr 6, 2014 18:51:28   #
BillyDuds wrote:
Rather than use the 2x extender, which will diminish IQ on your fine 70-200, you might consider shooting with that lens naked and cropping in post to the dimensions you like. The d800's high resolution allows a lot of cropping while still producing a great final image.
BTW, I use back button focus, with AF-C 3D for everything, moving or stationary, and get a very high % keepers.
And for what it's worth, on advice from B&H I recently got an 80-400. The 80-400 probably isn't quite up there with your 70-200, but the detail is super nonetheless, and the reach allows pretty decent bird photos.
Rather than use the 2x extender, which will dimini... (show quote)


I second the thoughts of Billyduds
The D800 and 70/200 are well matched as is, so it is unlikely that the TC will do anything other than reduce the FOV, increase noise and slow down focusing. With a bad camera and that good lens the TC could help- you have 1/2 of that mix.
Concur on the BBF. I have the D800 w 80/400G, combo is a bit heavy but gets good bird pics
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Apr 5, 2014 10:55:51   #
Rather than more or fewer bees, how about big bees vs smaller bees

The big bees gather more light but they create a rougher textured picture (IE noisier)
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Apr 5, 2014 10:48:22   #
Love my D800
One thing I had to learn was how to make effective use of those extra pixels
Nikon suggests to use a tripod!
I frequently find it useful to shoot higher ISO than I did previously as the improvement in shake blur overcomes the higher ISO noise much of the time (all things in moderation)
Even with the VR I find the old formula of shutter speed=1/(2 X FL) to be valid
Even if you do not use the Shake blur filter in PSCC the analysis graphic that comes with it will tell you how you are doing on shake
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