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Sep 12, 2023 20:06:38   #
Mickey Jetpur wrote:
Sure there will be a lot of confusion! Landscape photography will be the hardest hit. And most of us are landscape photographers. We are the majority that buy the cameras and the huge long lenses! Everyone is not a wedding or sports photographer. As for family pics, your iPhone should suffice.
Then there’s the question of copyright. Images can be borrowed or stolen and changed according to the AI you want to use!
Certain types of crime can also be manipulated. That’s a whole other subject!
One can say the internet is a very good thing but look at all the misinformation that is floating. Enough to question governments!
Oh well, nothing much one can do, but go along.
Cheers!
Sure there will be a lot of confusion! Landscape p... (show quote)


Hmm…. Hubris much? “Most of us here are landscape photographers”? Did I miss the survey questionnaire?

And frankly, I’d think bird shooters would be close to the top of the list (and they’re the ones who buy long glass; I dare say landscape aficionados prefer wide angle lenses.

But my point was that certain type of photography will be impacted more than others.

I daresay from your comment about images being borrowed and changed with A.I. belies your misunderstanding of what the OP has done - the images he has shown had no “real” origination point - but instead were completely generated digitally. This is a whole ‘other beast from the “A.I.” marketing gibberish that Adobe, Luminar et al advertise.

It does seem to me that the fine art community (let’s say landscaper photographers) will be hard hit if they plan to continue using the “old tech” of actual camera gear and lenses and tripods…but seeing what the kind of A.I. created and generated can be then if you have that image in your “mind’s eye” you could presumably have the system generate it without leaving the comfort of your home.

I am not implying that I like this trend, but as with virtually all technological advancement it would seem to be inevitable.
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Sep 10, 2023 17:18:14   #
Horseart wrote:
OK, I'm whipped. I have been an artist for 81 years (since the age of 4). I've sold paintings since I was 16. The world won't need artists any more, so I'm glad I am old enough to just quit!
The scary thing is that someday the courts may be full of people showing "proof" of someone doing something they didn't do. WOW!


It strikes me that there is a lot of confusion about how A.I. photography (or photographic mimicry, perhaps?) will impact the world of photography overall. While there have been some very good thoughts presented in this thread (and a lot of posts displaying the ignorance of the writer in terms of what really constitutes A.I. in the sense the OP brought up), I have realized that the term “photographer”, as in “I am a photographer” is too broad - it begs the question, “what kind of photographer? Event/wedding? Corporate? Fine Art? Sports? Nature? You get the idea.

So, indulge me as I opine on how A.I. may impact these various sub-disiplines:

Event/Wedding - I see no way artificially produced images will suffice in this realm. After all, people want to see their kids or loved ones or whatever dancing at the wedding or doing the barrel race at the rodeo or performing on a balance beam at a gymnastics meet. Made-up people doing those very tings have no value, other than perhaps to show the young gymnast a good form to use and the like. But as @rehess stated above, "recording what actually is” is the necessary element here.

Corporate - this arena may well be hit pretty hard. Of course, executive portraiture will not be impacted (again, I am not speaking of the post process “A.I.” work that Photoshop or Luminar et al can do). However, there may no longer be a need for a real person controlling a camera to get that “money shot” of the moon rising over the new factory with smoke pouring out of the chimneys illuminated by the glow of sodium vapor lights or whatever.

Fine Art - As @Horseart pointed out above, it might be the case that not as much fine art photos will be sold. However, I have always considered photography to be an art and a craft…the ‘art’ part is having a vision in your mind’s eye that you want to share with others; the ‘craft’ part is knowing the gear and the concepts that enable you to put that image in front of other people. So while A.I. generated works may well be created whole cloth out of nothing, I daresay the last image in @jlg1000’s latest post (the flaming eyeball thing) was not created from the “mind” of the computer - rather, he (she?) effectively told the computer what to generate, having had a basic concept in mind. Feel free to disabuse me of that notion, @jlg, but I tend to doubt the machine ‘woke up’ one morning and generated that image.
So, in the end, a fine art photographer might consider this A.I. stuff to be just a really more advanced camera of a sort, where, instead of having to use The Photographer’s Ephemeris to figure out where to stand to get the rising moon between two mountain peaks (see attached) one would be able to tell the machine “I want a moonrise at 98% full appearing over that peak” or whatever.

Sports - It seems to me that capturing the actual catch/kick/block/whatever of the instant is the thing in demand, not a contrived “make a photo with that sportsball guy doing that thing” image. So, like Event/wedding shooting, A.I. generated images will have little impact - other than making deepfake lies (“make an image with Mike Tyson beating Lia Thomas in a swimming race”…)

Nature - now IMHO this one gets a little trickier. There is certainly an expectation of a photograph of a band of gorillas in the wild to be ‘real’, but since humans (or at least, the vast majority of humans) cannot tell one silverback gorilla from another, unlike a wedding photo, it is very hard to see that a given image is faked. How soon will we see versions of the (in)famous “macacque self portrait” thanks to faked imagery? And, for that matter, who will care? That said, I recall there having been quite the uproar years ago when a NatGeo shooter admitted that a shot of herd of zebra where one was looking back at the photographer was photoshopped to put in that zebra. So this may become a grey area…nature shooters might be in trouble.

Anyway, them’s my 2¢

Moonrise over the Organ Mountains

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Sep 9, 2023 20:57:14   #
jlg1000 wrote:
Excellent conversation.

I'll try to address most of the comments that arised:

1) Yes, no model release (nor payment) required.
Exactly, this is the benefit/curse of this method:
* benefit because it lowers costs
* curse because a whole lot of proffessionals (models, hair stylists, etc) won't be needed anymore

2) Copyrighting, trademarking, etc.
If an image is 100% created by AI, I have to agree with the judge.
But it happens to be irrelevant. Creating AI images is like setting up the machine and let ir run. I've left my computer overnight and fount about 700 photos of like ladies in similer setup. It is nonsense to try to copyright each of them.

*BUT* I'm confident that I could copyright or trademark to procedure to create them. Is like protecting some reciepe - say BigMac -, not each individual sandwitch

3) Did AI create, for example, the face of the girl from several faces?
NO. It uses comples mathematical processes mostrly based on convolution and tensor operations.
It's pure math.

What IS true, is that the model was trained using zillions of real photos from many Internet sources to create the mathematical objects called "tensors" (which are fancy matrixes) which can be later used to create images.

3) Really impressive images. You seem to have solved the hand problems. Any luck on improving lower legs and feet?
Yes, but it is still beta. The detector, sometimes doesn't lock on the feet but on other objects and creates a mess. Working on it.

4) I now have to wonder if someone wants to date "her". Can an AI "girl" give consent? Not interested personally but I do wonder.

I know this is a joke, but is has a prfound implication: are AI truly "intelligent"?

Short answer: NO... yet.

AI is a catch all term. In reality all those AI's are HUGE mathematical models that need an artificial neural network to process quickly.

*BUT* the complexitty of those models is so big that researchers noticed "emerging effects" i.e. behaviours that were nor forseen nor desired by the designers.

For example, and anybody can try it: ChatGPT was *never* trained on images of any kind. Just text, including computercode in many languages.

The creepy thing si that in the last couple of week, if you prompt "Create a Python code that draws an unicorn) it will produce code that - when ran - draws a similar object to an unicorn. Or a house. Or a cat...

Most researchers start to believe that tere is something more in those models...

5) Proportions (hand size, etc.)
Indeed... working on it. Will post leter.

6) But why? That's my question about AI. Why? Why not just get a rubber stamp and have at it.

As it turns out, AI belongs not to a corporation, it's open source and it is freely developed by the global programmers community. AI knows no borders, it is the same to code in a developed country than in the mos under developed one.

In fact it is so easy, that simple teen apprentices can and do contribute to the advancement of AI.

If it would be somehoe "rubber stamped", it would happen in a specific jurisdiction... nobody outside it would care. And to enforce such a regulation it a Gestapo police would be needed to check each and everybody's computer.

7) Right. And "Real Photographers" will toss all their gear and become experts at keyboarding.

No they will not. I won't
Photography did not kill painting.

As it was pointed out, stock photo will be afected. Proffessional photo also.
Amateur photographers are like fishermen... they can buy fish, but choose to stand in the cold watching their rod to catch something.

8) Fake
While it is is true that the models do not existe, the creations themselves are very real.

A painting depicting an imaginary scene is not fake, nor are some AI generated renderings.

BUT, a rendering is certainly FAKE if it is intended to be a LIE. For example a "photograph" of Donal Trump punching the Pope in his face. It could be a joke, but also something to incite scandal.

9) For example, it could erase/replace a scratch when that is needed.
Piece of cake.

A) As a programmer who has worked with AI since 2012, the new GPT-4 toolkit in the wrong hands is very scary

Do you know what is more scary? I have LLAMA 2 in my computer, it is free open source and is already better than GPT4. The genius is already out of the bottle.

B) When you say you have not used a photo to begin with, I want to go back and probe more deeply. I have more than 20 photos available through Shutterstock that are now in datasets that Shutterstock is selling to AI software companies so that they can train their AI software to construct better and better images. Are you ruling this out? I don't believe so. To me, you have benefited from lots of photos to make these two images. How else would your software know what a human is and, in particular, what a young adult female is?

Good point.

Let me clarify: I did not use any images to edit/make a collage. or whatever "photoshopy" procedure

Saying that AI was trained using images from the Internet is the same as *using* the images is ahhh... not quite true.

The models were *trained* using photos, this doesn't mean that the model somehow contains those images. The model is just a bunch of ginormous arrays of mathematical objects.

It's like saying that a painter that learned to paint watching photographs somehow uses them to make his pieces of art. He or she benefited from those to learn, but that's it.

C) With regards to the legal issues of ownership, I did not notice that anyone has yet mentioned the problem of the ownership of the photos and the resulting images that come from them. If my image or images went into training asome AI photo software, don't I then have some right to ownership of the resulting images.

You do not.

The Service Terms of all orine services (Google Photos, Shutterstock, Instagram, Adobe, etc.) were amended a couple of years ago to grant them the right to use them to train AI. Period.

It's black on white... and you had to click on the "accept" button to continue using those services.


D) New point:

The very same mechanism can create variations of real looking images, or completely crazy things... watch:
(yes, the last one is also one of mine creations...)
Excellent conversation. br br I'll try to address... (show quote)


@jlg - thank you for an outstanding synopsis of the state of the art and the issues associated with A.I. creations - I cannot imagine seeing a more concise and accurate set of descriptions.
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Sep 8, 2023 14:49:11   #
rehess wrote:
The problem is that the term “AI” can have several uses. A program that acts as your assistant, and ‘clones’ out annoying objects {yes, like telephone poles} is one of them. A program that adds objects to a scene {or generates a whole scene} is one of them. Programming that guides a ‘drone’ looking for a particular scene is also one of them.


Kind of my point. But the point many opining here seem to have lost is that original image is not something that was "tweaked" in any way from another image - he generated it completely digitally. Bit difference between that and post processing.

Of course, since many members do not have the ability to actually read what others wrote but instead need to write their jaunty thoughts to feed their egos, many of the comments that have been made missed the point. And that is why I have written two times (before this third entry).
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Sep 8, 2023 12:47:44   #
CrazyJane wrote:
But why? That's my question about AI. Why? Why not just get a rubber stamp and have at it.


I think you are confusing the term A.I. the OP is talking about with the marketing hype that Adobe et al have been pushing of late as tool enhancements to improve post production results.

What the OP has presented (here and in a few other posts) are not images that he "tweaked" to remove telephone poles or other distractions. That "girl" in the image never existed in any form whatsoever. He did not generate that image from a snapshot of his niece or a model or anything, but instead the image was generated completely electronically, without benefit of film or imaging sensor or human involvement (other than his setting the commands to generate it).

This overall tech has been going on for a few years in general - many folks don't realize that many car commercials, where you see that beautiful automobile careening around the corner, are actually made by having a electric powered so-called "sled" (which looks kind of like a block of soap on four wheels) run the course and having CGI overlay that gorgeous whatever it is:
https://www.techspot.com/news/65337-how-car-commercials-filmed-without-actual-car.html

The big deal at this stage is the tech has advanced to the point where it is surpassing what was once called "the uncanny valley". YOu might recall a theatrical motion picture with Tom Hanks called "Polar Express" from 20 years back - folks who watched it thought the Hanks character looked creepy - real-but-unreal. But as with all things technological, advancement at an exponential rate has brought us to present times, where images and actions that look lifelike are in fact made without a human setting foot on a soundstage anywhere. This is why I said what I did earlier - the SAG/AFTRA strike is being performed by folks who don't realize they will be replaced totally (except in live theater, of course).

So, to answer your question - the answer is "money", or specifically, the saving thereof.
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Sep 8, 2023 06:58:47   #
It is understandable that anyone earning a living from photography is quite scared of losing their livelihood - because I have little doubt that this is exactly what will happen. As someone already pointed on in this thread, stock photography will no doubt be replaced altogether. And taking this technology to motion/video form, the SAG/AFTRA folks are essentially dead men walking (dead people walking?) because it will not be much longer before the same will be done in that realm - a character created out of whole cloth with no original human faces or bodies used as a kernel becoming the star of a TV show or whatever. I imagine in five or ten years entire movies will be created without one human setting foot on a soundstage (talent or crew).

My guess is when that happens in the world of movies and TV, actors will have two choices. Those who truly love the craft will find themselves trodding the boards in live theater, which may see a resurgence as audiences tire of "fake" movies etc. Meanwhile, celebrities who are in it for the fame (and perhaps because they slept with the right people on the way up) will find themselves having to find other work - maybe they can learn to code.

As for still imagery, what may happen is a resurrection of analog photography; who knows, we may find ourselves arguing which film produces the nicest tones again. And Fuji could offer an Instax type instant print film camera in an 8x10" format!
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Sep 6, 2023 12:53:44   #
burkphoto wrote:
We live in a sea of electromagnetic radiation at frequencies ranging from near DC to cosmic rays. Most of it is relatively harmless. Most of it is created by the sun and stars, and has been here since before we were a species. Tune an FM radio to an unused frequency and you will hear the white noise from a zillion stars. Tune an AM radio between stations during a thunderstorm and you will hear lightning crackles.

WiFi operates around 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz, at very low power. US cell phones operate at lower frequencies, 700 MHz to 2.2 GHz.

Some folks worry they are being "cooked" by WiFi, because its 2.4 GHz band is similar to the 2.45 GHz used in household microwave ovens. However, the oven typically runs at 700 to 1400 Watts, and WiFi signals are legally limited to ONE Watt. Most household WiFi outputs up to 1/10 of a Watt, or 100 MW. Your microwave oven will probably interfere with your 2.4 GHz WiFi device if it is nearby while you cook! It grounds most of the unused energy, but a teeny bit leaks out.

Electromagnetic radiation (light, radio, heat, etc.) dissipates according to the inverse of the square of the distance from the source (1/D^2). So if you have 100 MW at one foot, you will have .001 (a thousandth of a) Watt at ten feet. That's enough radio signal to work with, but it isn't going to hurt anyone!

I worked in both low power (10 Watts) and high power (1000 Watts to 100 KiloWatts) radio stations in my youth. I drive a Prius that generates very strong magnetic fields in its two electric motor-generators. I live next to a 230 KiloVolt transmission line. My WiFi router is about ten feet away from me at home, and has been for over two decades. For 33 years, I worked in a photo lab and printing company that consumed enormous amounts of power.

AND I DON'T TWITCH. Much.

We live in a sea of electromagnetic radiation at f... (show quote)


Well said, and my point, exactly.
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Sep 6, 2023 08:26:27   #
I guess one would have to question the logic of how WiFi (which uses radio waves) would kill one and yet the radio waves beaming back and forth to the StarLink satellite would have no impact on one. Or, for that matter, the AM and FM and television radio waves we are all already bathed in.
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Aug 30, 2023 09:22:50   #
JohnSwanda wrote:
The Photographers Plan is $10 a month, without extra storage.


Why, thanks for belaboring the obvious with a nothing piece of data - I was using a number pulled out of thin air since their full plan is $50/month - the number itself was not the point. The point is that a business is much happier with an expected revenue stream than with the randomness of peaks and valleys in the course of the year.
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Aug 30, 2023 09:09:28   #
Longshadow wrote:
None of them asked me.

Guess I don't count.


Correct - you don't. It is the cumulative action of all the customers that counts. So start a petition telling folks not to succumb to these business practices - that's the ticket!

Alas, it will be an uphill battle - the things we think we "own" are becoming more and more simply licensed - including, for instance, John Deere tractors.

Here, perhaps you would like to learn what has been going on - I can suggest this book: "The End of Ownership: Personal Property in the Digital Economy" by Aaron Perzanowski & Jason Schultz. It's 5+ years old but the concepts don't change. They talk about how folks who thought they bought e-copies of "1984" discovered to their surprise in April 2008 (as I recollect - that date may be wrong) that Amazon retrieved the books from their Kindles and reimbursed their payments (having to do with some legal tussle with the Orwell estate). So it turns out they didn't own those Kindle books they paid for - only the license to use them.
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Aug 30, 2023 08:46:58   #
BebuLamar wrote:
If so the argument that developers have to eat doesn't have merit. When they developed the software and sold it for the first time they made the money then they should go on and develop something else to make more money. They can't expect to make one product and have enough to eat their whole life.


There are two main reasons that software companies have been and continue to move to the subscription model:
1 - it makes support a far simpler proposition, since the support team does not need to know how to help someone with a version from 5 generations before, and
2 - it makes the financial side of things easier - Adobe, for instance, can much better predict what their cash flow will be knowing they get $20/month from a million customers (or whatever) as compared to the old days where they mnight get a surge of buyers at Christmas or the like.

This is why SAP, Microsoft and other big business software vendors have moved to the model.

In addition, anyone who thinks/thought that paying Adobe $600 for Photoshop back in the day meant they were "buying" the software is in error - what you paid for was the license to use the software...that has been the practice since the 1970s. Like it or hate it, that's the reality.

As for whether updates are necessary - well, we have probably all lived through situations where due to upgrades or changes in the hardware or operating software a given package will no longer work - so, yes, at some point, getting an update becomes a requirement. Oh sure, I know there are some folks who still have a machine running DOS or perhaps even C/PM - but try doing anything with that raw file from your Z8 on that.
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Aug 25, 2023 10:14:54   #
jlg1000 wrote:
This are very interesting points.

Being deeply involved in AI development, I gave all this topics fairly deep toughs over a long time.

First: "Maybe there will be AI lawyers?"

Yes. And AI judges, and AI prosecutors.

It already begun: Lawyers are already using LLM's (notably ChatGPT) to help them write complains, etc.
Judges are also using ChatGPT to make summaries of the complaints (try this promt: "write a summary and keypoint of ' < paste a complex text here >'. Prosecutors also.

AI is *open source* so there are many teams training LLM's with all kind of laws, decrees, etc. etc.

Tech savvy lawyers will use this tools to get better results in less time, and get more customers. Less tech savvy lawyers will succumb.

Second: "One answer to the Fermi Paradox is that advanced civilizations advance to a point of being able to destroy themselves, then they do. Is AI this the beginning of our self destruction?"

This if the most interesting point and I gave a lot of though to it... I believe that the answer is yes and no:

Lets break it down into simple facts:
1) We have a very limited memory and access to data, AI can have access to the whole data of the world. An AI can know ALL laws, decrees, rulings, etc. of every country in the world. AI can know every image ever created, from the cavemen to the latest photos... simultanously.

2) We are slow to communicate. AI communicates at Terabits per second.

3) We are short lived. There is no theoretical limit to the lifespan of AI. It is imaginable to send AI equipped spaceship on millennia long voyages. Not so with humans.

4) We are fragile. We need constant care, food, air, water, low radiation... AI does not.

5) We are slow evolving. AI evolves lightning fast

We are living an interesting time in the history of Earth, I call it The Singularity.

This is how the Fermi Paradox can be solved:

1) Life arises in a planet
2) It evolves until intelligence arises.
3) Intelligence creates civilization
4) Civilization discovers AI
5) Civilization and AI master gene manipulation
6) Living intelligent creatures and AI merge
7) Intelligence is fully transferred to silicon (or other media)
8) Rapid technological development occurs, new communication means are perfected, like entanglement, wormholes, or whatever, which are not detectable by us.
10) Civilization gets completely incompatible with biological species, so we cannot detect them nor understand them. We are like an ant heap next to them
11) They don't need nor want con "conquer" habitable planets. They don't need water, nor food... and oxygen or geological processes are dangerous. They only need energy... beter get attached to an airless rocky planet or asteroid near to a stable star or just drift in space.

I strongly believe that that process happened zillion of times across the Universe... maybe all around us is full of "life", but we cannot see it. Ants don't see airplanes either.

We could have been born in the middle ages, or the stone ages... but we happened to be born very close to The Singularity.

What interesting time to live!!
This are very interesting points. br br Being dee... (show quote)


Actually, you bring to mind something that Kevin Kelly posited in his book "What Technology Wants"...in essence that humans may simply be the current link in a long chain of evolution where the underlying motivation is to have a better understanding of the universe and reality, etc. As the book is 13+ years old, and while Kelly was a co-founder of Wired magazine so thus knows tech in general, his prognostications may end up being close to the mark...
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Aug 21, 2023 10:26:09   #
JD750 wrote:
This is interesting:

US judge rules fully AI-generated artwork cannot be copyrighted

https://www.avclub.com/judge-rules-that-strictly-ai-generated-artworks-cant-be-1850754193


Very interesting (and perhaps a solution if it holds up). But the phrase "The office has ruled that works where a human has “selected or arranged” the art in question in a “sufficiently creative way that the resulting work constitutes an original work of authorship” could qualify for copyright." makes me wonder what happens with that case a few years ago where the monkey took a 'selfie' using a camera the photographer handed him...
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Aug 20, 2023 18:02:17   #
JD750 wrote:
Yep. However they won’t be able to use the likeness of real models. And customers may not like completely AI generated people. TBD. And it’s AI so it made at some point demand it’s own royalties. 😂😂

Matt Granger is using AI to add clothing to art nudes so he can advertise his courses on U-tube. It works great for that.


Actually, as I pointed out on page two of this discussion, these non-human completely digitally created humanesque images are becoming virtually indistinguishable from the real thing - the so-called "uncanny valley" (as it was called a decade ago when attempts of CGI generated real people like Tom hanks in that movie Polar Express) has been crossed. And like all things technology related, nothing can stop it.

So I foresee a day in the not too distant future where all those SAG-AFTRA actors (and perhaps writers guild writers) will be told to hit the bricks because they will be replaced with digital entities that cannot be distinguished from real humans. I mean, they will of course still be able to trod the boards in live theater; the rest can learn to code or something.
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Aug 20, 2023 07:55:55   #
I am fascinated that with all this braying about if A.I. images are or are not photographs nobody has made the leap to moving images - which is a main point in the strike of the actors strike....they don't like the idea of getting paid for one day of labor (to be photographed) and then allowing the producers to use their likenesses in perpetuity going forward. But what they don't want to acknowledge is that, much like the images posted here by the OP - it will not be long before there is no need for any human talent to step on a stage to create a movie or TV show. I have seen examples of completely digitally generated video clips that have certainly surpassed the so-called "uncanny valley" - in other words, they look real - flowing hair and clothing in the wind, etc. So I daresay in a few years there will be movies that required zero humans on a set - just programmers getting the machine to generate the video - with "actors" that were created digitally without one original model being photographed.
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