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Jul 30, 2020 13:32:16   #
rehess wrote:
Did you read the Reuters's article I have pointed to several times??? It says that Sweden encouraged 'distancing'. I am quite certain that Reuters would not lie about something like that. In addition, the article shows a street sign encouraging distancing. These are not merely "convenient" nor am I being "selective". I believe your "evidence" was a rare occasion and not typical of their behavior.


No one said they didn't encourage distancing. Nor that anyone was lying about their guidelines. That's why I asked you about Michigan.

You're selective with how you give Sweden so much credit because it was recommended and they have signage. However, I'm certain Michigan has similar signs and recommendations (and then some).

I've shown proof of them not distancing, yet you would never give the same benefit of the doubt to those in the US. Why is that? How is that not being selective?
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Jul 30, 2020 13:26:45   #
David Martin wrote:
We know that the SARS-CoV-2 virus spreads via the respiratory route.
We know that wearing a mask is considered effective in reducing the spread of other illnesses that spread via the respiratory route, both bacterial and viral. In my lifetime this was seen with TB patients.
It is therefore logical to conclude that masks should have an effect in reducing the spread of Covid-19.
No one is going to do a randomized trial, deliberately exposing one group of people to an unmasked Covid patient and exposing another group of people to the same Covid patient wearing a mask, just to prove this. Anecdotal evidence, such as the Springfield, Missouri hair salon, provide some evidence.
We know that the SARS-CoV-2 virus spreads via the ... (show quote)


I think you're missing the point, though not by much. The subtlety is everything in this question though. It's not that I don't believe masks can help in some capacity. It's that they are an effective tool in getting us out of this thing as a whole. I currently don't see much support for them being a significant driver of decreasing the impact of the virus.

I'm starting to believe either...
-There are so many variables that it's impossible to believe those who say, "Just wear your mask, that's why things are out of control." Though that's what so many people say. I was originally thinking I'm missing something simple since so many people think this is true. I no longer think I'm missing much on this topic as I've done further research (including here).
-Herd Immunity is actually happening, but it's not easy to identify in antibodies. Maybe it's the T-Cell immunity or something else. This would be great news if true as we could end some of the measures we've taken. My hope is that there would be less fear spreading if we could figure this out. I've heard countless times that people are dying because they're too scared to go to the hospital (stoke, heart attacks, etc.). It's very sad...and will be much more so if we find out people were unnecessarily afraid - for many more months/years.
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Jul 30, 2020 13:13:09   #
rehess wrote:
I "dismissed our friend from Michigan" because the press has reported several incidents in which they did not follow their rules - neither distancing nor masks. The only rules that matter are the rules which are actually followed.

As far as how many Swedes are masking - that does not really matter. What does matter is that we know that they practiced distancing, and masks have been supported as supplements for those times when you cannot mask,


Right now all I "know" the Swedes did is in the video I posted. Riding on crowded city buses and working out in small gyms makes me think you're being quite selective with what you define as distancing. It can't be only when it's convenient for the narrative.

Like I said, I don't doubt they did/do distance in places...but the evidence isn't holding up so far. Currently, I'd say we're doing a better job, with very few exceptions (covid parties, bars, outdoor demonstrations).
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Jul 30, 2020 12:36:22   #
rehess wrote:
Distancing and masks go "hand-in-hand". Sometimes it is just not possible to distance - and masks are vitally important there. We know Sweden did distance, and photo evidence is that they did use masks on occasion.


Again, you posted one person in a mask. I saw 2 out of hundreds.

I'm not saying you're wrong about them distancing, but the video I posted says your wrong about them being so much better. Would like to see some kind of evidence to support your claim on this matter. Not just the recommendations that may or may not have been followed. I believe this is your basis for dismissing our friend from Michigan who said they've had some of the strictest mask rules.
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Jul 30, 2020 12:29:46   #
docdish wrote:
I’m a physician. When people ask me if mask cut down on risk of spreading any disease, I respond by asking them if they would mind if I didn’t wear a mask while performing their surgery. They then apologize for asking a stupid question.


As a physician, you should at least know that bacteria exist. Or did the stupid question include how YOUR surgeries only have the potential to spread viruses, not other pathogens. Stupid indeed.

Note - this had nothing to do with the OP. As I stated, even a very small chance of spread to someone vulnerable (let's say...on an operating table) has always been convincing enough for me personally.
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Jul 30, 2020 12:05:08   #
CWGordon wrote:
The medical experts and scientists have been putting the information, re: masks out there for the last 6 months, or thereabouts. It would seem that anyone seriously and sincerely interested in learning about masks could and should have long ago learned what makes them effective and for what specific purposes these masks are most useful.
I think the person inquiring has had ample opportunity to learn about them if sincere in wanting to know. Therefore, I must question his or her motives in posing the question.
The medical experts and scientists have been putti... (show quote)


CWGordon Thought Police

Not bad. But my motives are basically spelled out in the OP which you've had ample time to read. If you need me to spell it out for you another way, here goes:
Are we sure that masks in NY and other areas are really what caused such great improvement in cases and deaths?
Maybe it's more about distancing, hand washing, immunity, something we haven't thought of, etc. If it was so clearly masks, Sweden would be in a much different situation, no?

Let me know if that doesn't make sense or if it doesn't line up with my thoughts.
Thanks!
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Jul 30, 2020 11:38:52   #
srt101fan wrote:
If I understand you right, you are looking for evidence that mask use is beneficial based on a comparison of outcome in different countries/areas. This evidence is too difficult to get. There are too many ifs, buts and howevers, too many variables. And remember Mark Twain’s (or was it Disraeli’s?) words: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics”.

I’m not a medical professional. I do have some background in respiratory protection. I’ve had lots of interaction with scientists and researchers in various fields so I have an understanding of scientific testing and the importance of putting tests and resulting data in proper context. And I have very strong opinions on the value of wearing a mask. Here is my take:

I suggest you put aside the search for the evidence you seek. Better to concentrate on mask performance as it relates to the individual. I recognize that here too it’s not all black and white. Many variables – among them design/production of the mask, mask fit, donning/doffing, decontamination, and one of the most important - characterization of the coronavirus-contaminated environments the mask might encounter. That last one is one of the more difficult and unsettled issues.

A research paper I saw gave the virus particle size as around 125 nanometers or 0.125 microns. That’s pretty damned small and way beyond the filtration capability of cloth and surgical masks. But the good news is that you don’t have to filter out individual virus particles to slow down the virus distribution. An infected person transmits it via exhaled air or, more forcefully, by sneezing or coughing. Thus the filtration challenge to the mask is not individual viruses but droplets or aerosols that contain clusters of the virus. So what you are trying to stop is significantly larger than a single virus. I’ve read that droplets, such as found in a sneeze, are 5 to 10 microns; aerosol particles ranging around 0.5-3 microns. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a great variation in the published data. If anyone has any good sources please let me know.

The filtration effectiveness of the mask is measured relative to the size of the filter challenge. An N95 respirator will remove 95% of 0.3+ micron particles. What size particles do the various available surgical and cloth face coverings stop? That depends, of course. It’s definitely not 0.3 like the N95s. But what filtration efficiency do we need in order to declare that masks are an effective countermeasure in the fight against coronavirus?

I think by now most reasonable people are convinced that even simple masks properly worn and used by an infected person (including asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic cases) will significantly cut down the amount of contamination that person releases via exhaled air or sneezes and coughs. But what about protection afforded to the wearer of the mask being another incentive for wearing them?

I firmly believe that a mask, properly worn and used in conjunction with distancing and hygiene, will reduce my risk of getting infected. No I can’t quantify the risk reduction, but based on what I know I believe it to be significant. It pains me, therefore, to see constant references to the masks being “useless” in terms of protecting the wearer. Even the experts have made comments close to that, thankfully, less so more recently. I think their reluctance to endorse the idea of masks protecting the wearer is based on concerns regarding proper mask usage and potential relaxation of other mitigation measures because of a false sense of security. But these are issues that can be handled with proper education of the public, can’t they?

So it’s a very complicated problem and accurate quantifiable assessments of the efficacy of masks (especially cloth masks) in reducing the spread of coronavirus is beyond our reach at this time. But we shouldn’t get hung up on an “all or nothing approach”. We can’t yet eliminate the Covid-19 infection threat. But we can surely reduce the risk: Distancing + Hygiene + Masks + Common Sense

(With regard to Sweden: A July 21 opinion piece by 25 Swedish doctors and scientists characterizes the Swedish approach as a failure. It concludes with “don’t do it the Swedish way.” - https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/21/coronavirus-swedish-herd-immunity-drove-up-death-toll-column/5472100002/ )

(I posted an earlier topic on masks at: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-656094-1.html#11402347)
If I understand you right, you are looking for evi... (show quote)


This makes a lot of sense and I agree with and relate to almost all you outlined. Very even handed response and appreciate the sentiment.

I certainly will continue to wear a mask, but you've understood my question well and agree that the ability to quantify the effectiveness for society is quite elusive.

I'd distance a bit from the "Sweden approach" topic in general - since even they admit they did not emphasize protecting the elderly as well as they should. I've never suggested that we should follow them or their rules, but rather find them as a unique piece of the puzzle concerning masks. Had they protected the more vulnerable, maybe they would be less of a cautionary tale. 'Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater' may apply here.
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Jul 29, 2020 13:50:21   #
rehess wrote:
Not just Florida - all across the country bars and restaurants have been closed recently because of the crowds they draw.

In Michigan, several July 4th parties made headlines because they went against 'distancing'.

Yes, masks are a piece of the solution, but only a piece.


I don't know of anywhere that's generally distancing less or wearing fewer masks than the video I posted of Gothenburg Sweden.

It sounds like you only think the US has an issue because of certain events/parties. That's something I'll try to dig into. I could agree with that if we can show how they've stopped having these events in areas that are doing better and likewise, cases continue or return in areas that keep this up.
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Jul 29, 2020 12:33:41   #
rehess wrote:
There is nothing to reconcile.
I said that we are doing are lousy job of 'distancing', which masking is just a part of.
You don't have to look very hard to see that.
There are lots of photos showing Floridians doing a lousy job of that.


Are you suggesting that Sweden is doing a better job than FL of distancing?

And are you not convinced that masks work well to reduce spread for the majority of the population? They are a very small (immeasurable) piece of the solution?

If those are both true...then you're correct - nothing to reconcile.
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Jul 29, 2020 12:21:59   #
rehess wrote:
Sweden may have 'stayed open', but they did maintain distancing and at least some residents used masks.
Look at the photo at the top of
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-07-07/swedens-daily-tally-of-new-covid-19-cases-falls-to-lowest-since-may


How do you reconcile that statement with your previous one?

This comment - You point to one person in a photo with a mask in Sweden...I posted a video that shows about 2 out of hundreds (maybe thousands). So we recognize that few (but some) wear masks in Sweden.

Previous comment - Florida is in bad shape because you think they don't even have 'some' residence using masks? That's too easy to disprove.

I'm not sure the narrative matches what's actually going on out there. I think states are in bad shape because they're not effectively protecting the vulnerable (mainly elderly). Sweden recognizes this piece as a failure as well. The rest doesn't really add up.
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Jul 29, 2020 10:56:55   #
zonedoc wrote:
Statistically wearing a seat belt may save your life in an auto accident. Wearing a face mask MAY prevent spread of COVID-19. What is the issue?


A hazmat suit would be even better, no? Not driving at all would certainly work even better than the seatbelt.

I don't see the issue for myself, just trying to figure out why a measure would appear to work in one location...but not be needed in another area of the world.
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Jul 29, 2020 10:51:34   #
StanMac wrote:
What I don’t understand about this post is why this forum continues to beat a dead horse on this topic of masks and their usefulness in reducing the spread of Covid-19. My county has seen a steady increase in cases over the duration of this pandemic and to my eyes the reason is plain to see - the majority of people out and about in the community in retail establishments, restaurants, and other places where the public gathers aren’t wearing masks. In my opinion, even social distancing alone in such situations is not as effective as it is said to be. If all the self-absorbed, science sceptical idiots out there would show a smidgeon of caring about their fellow citizens the growth in new infections would certainly show it.

Stan
What I don’t understand about this post is why thi... (show quote)


I think it's plain to see that your reason doesn't hold up everywhere. What's the reason for Sweden having a decrease...without masks? I don't buy that since their cases have dropped, they care more.

The dead horse may be that people want to use correlation and assume causation.
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Jul 29, 2020 09:12:51   #
rehess wrote:
No cloth mask claims to protect the user. The claim is that - combined with social distancing - they catch the ‘exhaust’ and protect those around. Since April we have known that something like 40% of those infected don’t know that they are shedding virus - so protection is needed. Comparing infections in New York {where they learned to protect each other} and California or Florida {where they do not} should provide all the evidence someone needs.


This is at the heart of my question (apparent confusion).

In NY, they already saw cases dropping before they implemented a mask order. So what caused that decrease?

And the trend looks very similar to what Sweden saw. What caused their decrease? We know it wasn't masks.

If Florida and California get things under control...which it looks like is already happening. Are we to believe masks were a large part of it?

I can't help but think that there are tons of people out there who don't abide by the masking or social distancing recommendations. I've seen plenty of pictures showing that people are still not taking that piece seriously, but the majority of the trends follow the same path.


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Jul 29, 2020 09:01:42   #
robertjerl wrote:
My wife is a retired Surgical RN/OR Charge Nurse, our daughter is in Medical School, our oldest son trained as an Army Medic then changed to Civil Affairs and all three tell me the main reason for the type of mask most people are using is to keep you from coughing or sneezing on someone. They are not very good at keeping things out because of poor filtration or poor fit/seal on the face. There are better ones that you only see in infectious disease wards, labs and some OR's that do seal well, have better filters etc. All the way up to Hazmat suits.

I have an industrial/lab grade half face mask made by 3M (I have asthma and got one for a painting project in the house several years ago so I ordered a new one.) that uses filter cartridges of several types from just dust all the way up to N95 (medical standard for "standard duty") and then even further to N100 (99.9% filtration on particles .3 microns or larger) and what I got for this Covid thing - P100, it also keeps out and resists petroleum based solvents.

Add a face shield or goggles over my glasses and people sometimes freak out when they see it. But it works and is actually easier to breath in then the floppy ear loop cloth things. I wear one of those for a while and it gets damp from my breath and I feel like I am breathing through a wet towel. It also doesn't fog my glasses as the filters are mounted on each cheek so the air goes sideways or down instead of up past a poor nose fit. I ordered it in the first place because I remembered my training with Army gas masks and they were designed for people doing hard physical things and needed to breath. I figured industrial and lab workers needed the same kind of thing so I bought one.

Oh, the cartridges that hold the filters (replaceable or non-replaceable are both available) have a bayonet mount similar to a camera lens mount and these P100's that I ordered are bright magenta/pink. My wife took some pictures of me with it on and sent them to our daughter. She wanted to know where I was planning on going in that (answer-anywhere but a hazmat environment or disease lab) and how did I manage to get one. Amazon has lots (and lots of cheap Chinese ripoffs). I got 3M from an industrial safety gear supply company. The hard part was finding a size large - tons of medium and small for sale on Amazon but large took almost a full day of online searching to find. I tracked it down through a review by "The Wirecutter" (they evaluate industrial stuff) even the New York Times published their review here it is: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-respirator-mask/
They also evaluate the other types of mask in the article. Read the whole thing. There is a lot of good and interesting information in the full article.

No one had the #1 choice 3M 6501QL (Quick Latch-to drop it while still wearing the harness so you can eat, drink, etc) in size large so I got the 7503* which uses the same cartridges but without the quick latch feature. I can afford to not eat more often anyway.

*They mention the 7502 - that is my mask in size medium.

Now if you maintain social distancing, wash or sanitize your hands, don't rub or pock your eyes the other masks help and at least make everyone feel better. (but not cheap cloth or bandannas like a western holdup man those are 99+% feel better and -1% effective)
My wife is a retired Surgical RN/OR Charge Nurse, ... (show quote)


Thank you. I appreciate the individual mask recommendations as I will continue to wear one around those more vulnerable.
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Jul 28, 2020 23:34:27   #
Looking through the posts here, it seems the vast majority believe masks work extremely well. I wear one because I think it's "possible" that I may spread the virus to someone more vulnerable than I.

So I'm asking for help with what you think is the BEST evidence that supports the use of masks for a given area (not individual person). The studies I've found have left quite a bit still in question.

I must be missing what the majority knows to be true since I don't see it nearly as clearly.
For example, Sweden has never worn masks, yet they saw the same spike and subsequent decline in cases and deaths as most other areas where they/we promote mask wearing (and if you watch the video below - it doesn't look like they are distancing very much either).

Here's what I'm leaning on regarding Sweden:
Video of some youtuber walking around their second largest city on 5/31 (among other youtube videos/comments) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI7nrqH_YnE&t=134s
And the death trend per Worldometers - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/


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