Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Actual working ISO
Page <<first <prev 6 of 8 next> last>>
Dec 12, 2018 17:23:55   #
medfordjw
 
I was fortunate to shoot a Green Beret night competition this year with a Nikon D850. The ISO was set as high as it could go. Noise????

The shoot started at 7:00 pm and finished at 4:00 AM



Reply
Dec 13, 2018 00:10:26   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Shutterbug57 wrote:
ISO is a standard that will allow you to get a properly exposed images with the same settings across various cameras. It says nothing about the quality of the pictures obtained, i.e., the noise level.


A low quality noisy image is not properly exposed, hence does not follow a Standard.
In the film days, ASA is about the sensitivity of the film. It is a standard that says at a certain amount of light, this film will react and produce image.
Today's ISO is not about sensitivity of the sensor, but rather the amount of amplification the camera does to the sensor's signal before it saves the data. That is where the problem happens because theoretically, we can up the ISO to any amount. The issue here is the signal to noise ratio. Granted that we may want to opt for getting the image whatever the cost, there is an optimum level and that is what it should be stated as a standard.

My point is that to comply with a standard, cameras should state the highest ISO number where an image is clean as their Actual working ISO. Any ISO beyond that should be called extended ISO limit.

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 00:24:01   #
ronpier Loc: Poland Ohio
 
Wallen wrote:
A low quality noisy image is not properly exposed, hence does not follow a Standard.
In the film days, ASA is about the sensitivity of the film. It is a standard that says at a certain amount of light, this film will react and produce image.
Today's ISO is not about sensitivity of the sensor, but rather the amount of amplification the camera does to the sensor's signal before it saves the data. That is where the problem happens because theoretically, we can up the ISO to any amount. The issue here is the signal to noise ratio. Granted that we may want to opt for getting the image whatever the cost, there is an optimum level and that is what it should be stated as a standard.

My point is that to comply with a standard, cameras should state the highest ISO number where an image is clean as their Actual working ISO. Any ISO beyond that should be called extended ISO limit.
A low quality noisy image is not properly exposed,... (show quote)


I agree. Let’s be realistic when it comes to rating these cameras. My car speedometer goes to 125 mph but the car runs much better and smoother at 70mph. So what good is a 125 mph maximum rating? No one would find that speed usable in an ordinary car. IMHO

Reply
 
 
Dec 13, 2018 05:53:01   #
Shutterbug57
 
Wallen wrote:
Today's ISO is not about sensitivity of the sensor, but rather the amount of amplification the camera does to the sensor's signal before it saves the data.


Exactly how does that work with Tri-X at ISO 400?

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 06:00:40   #
Shutterbug57
 
medfordjw wrote:
I was fortunate to shoot a Green Beret night competition this year with a Nikon D850. The ISO was set as high as it could go. Noise????

The shoot started at 7:00 pm and finished at 4:00 AM


Cool shot. Was that at ISO 25,600 or 102,400? I am guessing the former, but am curious to know.

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 07:58:49   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
Wallen wrote:
A low quality noisy image is not properly exposed, hence does not follow a Standard....
My point is that to comply with a standard, cameras should state the highest ISO number where an image is clean as their Actual working ISO. Any ISO beyond that should be called extended ISO limit.


"Proper" exposure is not always possible. There are situations in which you are required to use a high ISO. The alternative of a low shutter speed will not result in a useful image. The other alternative of a large aperture may not be possible. The other other alternative of increasing the light applied (e.g. flash) may be not allowed.

Sometimes you just have to take what you can get.

My D5 does use 200K as the highest ISO. The settings above that are considered extended. I think 200K is pushing it a bit, but my interpretation of the utility of an image with noise could well be different from the Nikon engineers who label the settings. After all, one of the primary markets for the D5 is low light photography.

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 13:36:35   #
David Taylor
 
Bipod wrote:
The price of high ISO is noise.

Random noise represnets the loss of information from the image file.
Maybe you don't care about information, but you probably care about money.

At ISO 100, your $1800 lens looks like $1800.
At IS0 200, it looks like a $900 lens
At ISO 400, it looks like a $450 lens.
At ISO 800, it looks like a $225 lens.
At ISO 1600, it looks like a $112.50 lens.
At ISO 3200, the photo look like it was taken with a $56.25 lens...
with fingerprints on it.

The choice is yours.

There are alternatives: faster lens (e.g, a prime), good off-camera flash,
lights, or just wait for better light.

There is a way to have high ISO without noise, used in space telescopes:
cryo-cool the sensor. Short of that, there is no way to turn up the sensitivity
without getting more "static". There is always thermal (Johnson-Nyquist)
noise.

Since solid backgrounds are more common than speckled ones, clever processing
can hide th enoise by filling in tiny white spots in a dark backgroun. But is the
background really had tiny white spots, you lose. Or if there are tiny black
spots in a white background--since these are very common in real scenes.

The trouble with random noise is...it's random. It destroys information.
had tiny white speckles,
The price of high ISO is noise. br br Random nois... (show quote)


That's fantastic! Higher isos means paying less for an expensive lens!

Reply
 
 
Dec 13, 2018 17:41:24   #
Shutterbug57
 
David Taylor wrote:
That's fantastic! Higher isos means paying less for an expensive lens!


Nope. That expensive lens doesn’t get a discount just because you put it on a high ISO body.

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 17:46:09   #
David Taylor
 
Shutterbug57 wrote:
Nope. That expensive lens doesn’t get a discount just because you put it on a high ISO body.


But Bipod says!

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 19:39:46   #
Robert1 Loc: Davie, FL
 
Since I print at a minimum of 4x6 I always shoot at less than 800. I would like to know how those super high ISOs would look on prints? Anybody, makes prints at those high ISOs, are they any good?

Reply
Dec 13, 2018 20:09:00   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
Robert1 wrote:
Since I print at a minimum of 4x6 I always shoot at less than 800. I would like to know how those super high ISOs would look on prints? Anybody, makes prints at those high ISOs, are they any good?


Again, it depends on which camera. If you want to know how prints from your camera will look at high ISO, shoot some and see for yourself.

Reply
 
 
Dec 14, 2018 09:47:51   #
PeterBergh
 
ronpier wrote:
I agree. Let’s be realistic when it comes to rating these cameras. My car speedometer goes to 125 mph but the car runs much better and smoother at 70mph. So what good is a 125 mph maximum rating? No one would find that speed usable in an ordinary car. IMHO


In Germany, there's no speed limit on most of the Autobahn; thus, 125 MPH would be perfectly usable there.

Reply
Dec 14, 2018 10:16:14   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
PeterBergh wrote:
In Germany, there's no speed limit on most of the Autobahn; thus, 125 MPH would be perfectly usable there.


There's a difference between perfectly usable and legal when it comes to the speed you operate your car.

Reply
Feb 24, 2019 05:30:27   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Bison Bud wrote:
I think we all know from previous discussions that ISO performance varies considerably from camera to camera. I have to wonder if a sensitivity of 800 ISO on one camera is even the same level of sensitivity on another camera set to 800 ISO? If this varies considerably, they can call it anything they want, we are not comparing apples to apples. So, is noise really the only variable factor between two cameras set at the same ISO number? In other words are the ISO settings equal from camera to camera where we should get very similar exposure performance at the same ISO level or does this also vary from camera to camera to compound the problem of making direct comparisons?
I think we all know from previous discussions that... (show quote)


Precisely my point. ISO is supposed to be a standard but in digital cameras, it is a toothfairy. It does not really exists.

Reply
Feb 24, 2019 06:12:11   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
LarryFB wrote:
I agree. But also let me add that I have seen great photos with a lot of grain. I believe that it depends on what you are looking for, the perfect sharp clear photo, or the perfect photo that shows the emotion that you are looking for.

Again, it all depends.

Frankly, I believe this whole thread is much ado about nothing


Au contraire, ISO is one of the pillars of exposure hence it matters a lot for us to fully understand what it is in order to proceed up the ladder of knowledge technically and artistically.

The reality is that the ISO we were exposed to is a lie.
Sensor do have sensitivity and every sensor depending on their design and attached technology can be assigned a strict & compliant base ISO. Everything that comes after that base ISO, the signal boost that is applied, should have been a standard step but experience shows us that manufacturers do not comply.

Things become clearer when invariant ISO was exposed as a marketing tool.

It matters because if we can see though this fog of mis-information, then we can compare apples to apples and know for sure the capability and limits of our tools. Then we can truly decide which one fits our need. Which is better for what job for its cost.

... and in the end, be better photographers.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 6 of 8 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.