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Dec 5, 2018 11:55:45   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Lol! If there was an emoji for shaking my head, I’d use it in this instance. You are unbelievable, you are worse than I thought.

So, AA Jr, how come you are using a car, instead of a horse? And why isn’t there a V8 under the hood of that vehicle? How come you buy meat that someone else raised artificially, instead of you killing it in nature? I could go on all day, pointing out what you are doing wrong.

I will continue to call you a troll. How immature and narcissistic you have to be to whine on a photography forum to a bunch of mostly old men who use the very cameras that you think are inferior, because LIFE MOVED ON. If you don’t like it, change it. What good does it do to complain about it on a forum?

Hey Bipod, maybe your secret wish is to find a community where members would consider you the last great master?

Am I guessing right, that you also think that the iPhone isn’t the right phone to make calls with? Or that everyone is wrong to use electricity at night instead of burning a candle?

If you want to sell your idea, prove your point. Like posting a picture that is not possible with smaller sensors. Prove it. Because your opinion isn’t anymore special than any one else’s.

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Dec 5, 2018 12:28:05   #
BebuLamar
 
Size of course matter for better or worse.

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Dec 5, 2018 12:35:41   #
Flickwet Loc: NEOhio
 
apples and oranges, all things being equal, a FF sensor of 36 meg will do better than a 24 megapixel crop sensor. But mostly it doesn't matter. A dull beautifully crafted photograph is still a dull picture. Bipod seems reluctant to share his dull photographs, his loss as it would add immeasurably to his credibility.

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Dec 5, 2018 12:37:24   #
Flickwet Loc: NEOhio
 
Flickwet wrote:
Apples and oranges, all things being equal, a FF sensor of 36 meg will do better than a 24 megapixel crop sensor, Duh. But mostly it doesn't matter so much. A dull beautifully crafted photograph is still a dull picture. Bipod seems reluctant to share his perhaps dull photographs, everybody's loss as it would add immeasurably to his credibility.


(Download)

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Dec 5, 2018 13:13:29   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Flickwet wrote:
apples and oranges, all things being equal, a FF sensor of 36 meg will do better than a 24 megapixel crop sensor. But mostly it doesn't matter. A dull beautifully crafted photograph is still a dull picture. Bipod seems reluctant to share his dull photographs, his loss as it would add immeasurably to his credibility.




Like some say, talk is cheap.

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Dec 5, 2018 15:26:57   #
n3eg Loc: West coast USA
 
Flickwet wrote:
apples and oranges, all things being equal, a FF sensor of 36 meg will do better than a 24 megapixel crop sensor.

Comparing a micro four thirds camera to a huge single-digit Canon or Nikon is more like comparing apples and pumpkins.
No pumpkins in my lunch box!

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Dec 5, 2018 17:37:56   #
User ID
 
Bipod wrote:
...........

And in most photography, not being able to
tell the scale of the subject or where the light
is coming from are considered flaws. ............


















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Dec 5, 2018 18:14:25   #
Bipod
 
Thanks, UserID. Those images (except the first one)
are great illustrations of my point.

The could be excellent examples of photomicrography:
very well-prepared slide specimens.

And thanks for the photo of your birthday party!

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Dec 5, 2018 20:46:42   #
Bipod
 
tdekany wrote:
Show one of your examples. You seem to think that you are a great photographer based on your posts. So let’s see an example that the rest of us could not replicate.


False. I have never made any such claims, and I have posted hundreds of examples.

You continue to make ad hominem arguments, tdekany. It is becoming tiresome.
Please take your playground taunts to the playground, not UHH.

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Dec 5, 2018 21:02:11   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Bipod wrote:
False. I have never made any such claims, and I have posted hundreds of examples.

You continue to make ad hominem arguments, tdekany. It is becoming tiresome.
Please take your playground taunts to the playground, not UHH.


Nobody likes to be called out on their BS, but you are so full of it. You have started 9 threads, yet you claim hundreds of examples? Where?

What is getting really tiresome are your absurd claims, like using 35mm size sensor systems are the wrong gear for landscape. Do you enjoy people laughing at you?

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Dec 5, 2018 21:08:01   #
Bipod
 
Strodav wrote:
You post proves it - just trolling.

I'll just bite a little more. I am an Electrical Engineer who spent 20 years designing and implementing image processing systems for the graphic arts industry. Our team's major task was to change prepress from film to digital. We were very, very successful. Have spent a significant amount of time studying film, optics, scanners, digital sensors, image processing, ... That's where my love of photography formed. At the end of the day, we all choose our own paths and it is rude to challenge other people's paths. Happy trolling. BTW, https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Nikon/D850---Measurements has a nice graph of the dynamic range of the D850.
You post proves it - just trolling. br br I'll ju... (show quote)

Thanks for the resume, Strodav. I am a retired VP of Engineering -- not that it matters.
Arguments stand or fall on their own merits, not who says them. Facts are facts.

Disagreeing with the majority isn't "trolling" -- or any other abusive term you care
to apply to me. Now, how about we discuuss photograph instaed of hurling mud?

There is absolutely no question that carefully engineered digital optical systems can be wonderful.
Astronomical telescopes are a great example--the camera in the James Webb space telescope for example.

But consumer cameras are an entirely different matter.. Even high-end DSLRs now consumer products.
Right now, the R&D focus is on making cameras lighter, smaller and cheaper to manufacture.

Morevoer, consumer cameras now are all miniature format or subminiature format. Digital has made
medium format cameras--which once dominated the consumer market--very expensive. And large format
digital cameras do not exist except in astronomical telescopes and spy satillites.

Can you replace a 8" x 10" film frame with a 24 mm x 36 mm digital sensor without loosing resolution
and depth-of-field? Optics says it's impossible.

I realize your speciality isn't optics, neither is mine. But I hope you will acknowlege this fact.

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Dec 5, 2018 21:09:46   #
Bipod
 
tdekany wrote:
I agree with you on my lack of talent, but I never said that prints are not important. Please try to comprehend what is being said. If you think that your pictures are going to be stolen, you should get off your high horse. That is the very argument every untalented shutter pressers use. You should try to be more creative. And stop lying please. You have never posted a photo that you took. All you are doing is hiding behind your computer screen. But I know the outcome and you’ll be soon gone, looking for your narcissistic feed elsewhere. For that, I thank you. You are not the first or last.

No matter what you say, you cannot be taken seriously at all. Your claims about smaller sensors are ridiculous. You are trying to be someone you are not. But you would make a good comedian.
I agree with you on my lack of talent, but I never... (show quote)


More static.

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Dec 5, 2018 21:14:42   #
Bipod
 
le boecere wrote:
I'm glad someone has finally come on UHH and made this statement: "To be fair, I don’t think that a poster’s displayed work on UHH (or lack thereof) is any reason to discount any contention or argument that is made."

For me, the idea that I would have to post "bigger and better" in order to hold an opinion, or a express a like/dislike about someone else's image or "photograph" borders on the emotionally juvenile. Furthermore, 'name calling', malicious, or otherwise, is equally juvenile (i.e.;"troll" and "trolling" are popular indictments on so many forums).

Thank you for an "adult" post.

P.S.: I agree with the OP's statement; "The validity of an argument or truth of fact does not depend on who says it."
I'm glad someone has finally come on UHH and made ... (show quote)



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Dec 5, 2018 21:42:33   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Bipod wrote:
False. I have never made any such claims, and I have posted hundreds of examples.

You continue to make ad hominem arguments, tdekany. It is becoming tiresome.
Please take your playground taunts to the playground, not UHH.


So let’s see: first you accused me of working for a camera company. That’s a huge LOL (paranoia)

You have never posted one single image or a link to an image, yet you just claimed that you had posted hundreds. (Liar)

Lastly, like every narcissistic type I have seen on photo forums, they never admit that they are wrong, never address the issue when they are wrong or ever apologize. I could go on, but what for, you even upset Linda From Maine and that is a first I have ever seen happen.

So what were you trying to say?

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Dec 5, 2018 22:16:27   #
btbg
 
Bipod wrote:
Sure, the right tool for the job! So how come the "right tool" nearly always seems to be the same tool, these days?
It didn't used to.

What other choices? Almost the only cameras being made now are color sensor digital cameras--99% of them are
miniature format or smaller.

If you want anything else, you have to buy it from elves int he Black Forest for $$$$$$$$. Or you
have to buy old equipment and restore it--the challenge there is that almost everything is missing
pieces--you can spend a fortune trying to get everything you need.

You can't even buy a digital camera with a monochrome (higher res, larger dyanmic range) sensor
except from Leica -- an M9 Monochrome for $8,000. Monochrome sensors are cheaper than color ones--
they're used in security cameras.

And you can forget about new rangefinders (extremely expensive), Twin-Lens Reflex, box cameras,
stereo cameras, or even an IR-capable camera (you have to have someone convert the sensor). All
of these things were once common. And the experience of using each type of camera is different:
you will do different work.

It's as if there were now no restraurants except burger joints. Sure, I like hamburgers! But sometimes
I want something else. And a diet of nothing but digital color minature format is bad for your
photographic health.

Optical laws dictate what each time of camera and each format can and cannot do well. But the
people who buy all these dinky digital color cameras are told they can do anything. And then
they tell each other that. But nobody believe that of film cameras--- you had to have the right
tool for the job. Marketing wasn't as powerful as it is today and there were a lot more companies
making cameras (many not based in Japan).

A 4" x 5" field (baseboard) camera is not necessarily heavy. The main reason 1920s and 1930s large
format cameras are heavy is they were made out of wood. They could just as easily be made from
aluminum (later, some were) or even plastic.

Please don't compare dodging and burning -- hands-on manual techniqued -- with running digital
algorithms that you didn't even write and don't know what they are actually doing to your image.
"Let's see, I'll click on 'sharpen', and then I'll click on...."

Obviously, if you want to take photos of cracks in the ground, you're going to need a very compact
and portable cameras. As it happens, I've photographed a lot underground, mostly in abandoned
mines. Most of those shots were taken with flash cubes, because at the time that was the smallest,
most rugged and most portable flash. Exposures always ran from white up close to yawning black
tunnels.

The shot you posted looks great--you should enter it in a contest. But do you really want to look at it?
For how long? What does eroded bedrock mean to you? And in most photography, not being able to tell
the scale of the subject or where the light is coming from are considered flaws.

It must have been a very challenging exposure. But other than that, this type of photography makes few
demands on your lens or camera: contrast is low, there are no straight lines, there are no essential details
that would be missed if lost. If the image had chromatic aberration, or geometric distoration, how would
you know?

OK, I realize there is now this thing "slot canyon photography" and photographers try to outdo each other.
I admit: I don't get it. Pictures of rocks.... and rocks.....and more rocks.... And not even any interesting
minerals.

Sure, it's is kinda like what Edward Weston did in the late 1920s and early 1930s with vegetables, sea shells,
and women's bodies. But those things are living --and he varied it. It wasn't just green bell peppers all the time.
And then later, he quit doing it, because it was becoming a cliche, other people had started doing it, and he didn't
want to be "founder of the green pepper school".

And it's never just about abstract forms with Edward Weston. Many of the images are eroticized. And mody of
the images are contrasty and employ a full range of tones. And then there's the fact that B&W emphasizes form,

But shoot landcape or architecture, and you very quickly find the limitation of you lens and camera.
Different tools for different jobs, indeed.

Finally, when I go backpacking in the desert, I'm not worried about the weight of my camera, so much
as about all the water I need to carry to go two to four nights. But most of the time---like most photographers--
I'm on a day hike or close to my car. So how come -- even at roadside vista points---I never see anything but
miniature and subminiature format color digital cameras? For landscape, that's not the right tool.

"What camera do I use? The heaviest one I can lift!" -- Ansel Adams
Sure, the right tool for the job! So how come th... (show quote)


Thanks for the compliment about the photo I posted.
I won't be entering it in a contest because I used it in a travel story at work.

I find some of what you posted to be interesting. I agree with some of the things you say, but not with others.

When I said the right tool for the job, that's exactly what I meant. I own a Nikon D5 because I shoot sports for a living. It's the right tool for the job.

I take two or three backpacking trips each year, that's what I do with my vacation time. I chose hikes because of the difficulty of the hike, the quality of the scenery, and because of the difference in terrain for previous hikes. I do my best to come back with a photo or photos that represent the hike and that are taken in places that most people are unable to get to. I then print a photo as a 20x30 poster that I hang on my wall. The photo that you saw will be one of those photos. It will be on my wall for probably two or three years before it finally gets replaced with a photo from a different hike. I agree that photos of slot canyons are becoming a bit of a cliche. Go online and you can find 100 different photos of antelope canyon that look virtually identical that are taken by different people. If my photo is a cliche that's the way it goes. To me it serves as both a memory of a great hike, and is a representation of some of the beauty in nature.

Now to address some of what you said. I agree that if you want to use an alternative to digital currently choices are limited and you may indeed have trouble finding parts, or may have to do repairs on your own. That's a shame, but that's the way things are. That's the way things have always been. I have shot with lots of different cameras from pinhole cameras to a 4x5 view camera that I made myself. I don't have it anymore because I sold it when I switched to digital. It was the logical choice because of my job.

Where I take issue with what you have said is concerning dodging and burning as opposed to using photoshop. When I was using a darkroom I had to make test prints and spent hours working on a print before it looked like I wanted. There were costs for chemicals and paper. Now I can get the results I want with no costs until I'm ready to print. Dodging and burning is absolutely comparable to working with photoshop. And if you don't think that my post processing is hands on, then you don't have any understanding of how I do postprocessing. As far as not understanding the algorithms, what's your point? You don't necessarily know exactly how all of the chemicals you use in the darkroom work. And as far as the algorithms, I make a lot of my own filters and plug-ins, and do have some understanding of how the algorithms work.

The object both with digital and with film is to get the exposure right in camera and then to make the print match the vision that you had when you took the photo. You can do that both with digital and with film. You choose to use film, I choose to use digital. And for what it's worth, my process is actually quite similar to the process that I used when I was working in a darkroom, but I get to keep the lights on and it costs a lot less to produce the finished image. I start with the base image. I look at what areas need to be dodged or burned. I look at whether the image is sharp enough to withstand enlargement and scrutiny. I plan how to work on the contrast, or tone, or color balance, etc. whatever needs to be improved or modified, then once I know the changes that I plan to make I plan out the steps necessary to get to that point. That's exactly what I did with printmaking before.

A camera is simply a tool. You have chosen your choice of tools and I have mine. Feel free to continue to believe that your choice of tools is better than mine. I will continue to use the tool that works best for my job and make no apologies for it.

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