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But - Can It Happen In America ?
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Aug 17, 2012 13:03:35   #
HEART Loc: God's Country - COLORADO
 
During Katrina, weapons were forcibly removed from citizens. When all guns are removed from citizens, we will have Syria (or pick a country). Over 21,000 killed so far...and growing; and nothing to stop it. Be thankful there is a 2nd Amendment (although Hillary and the UN are aiming to fix that, too).

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Aug 17, 2012 13:04:24   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
RixPix I often have to go with my best friend who like you is involved in carrying expensive stuff. He has been shot 5 times and killed two assailants, wounded another and save two cops lives in the shootout in Miami.

Now I walk behind him with my Baretta and he with his Smith. We are just too old to get shot up or beaten up. We both go to the range at least twice a month and see the eye doc on a regular basis.

Those totting should be checked out on a regular basis just like driving....

Reply
Aug 17, 2012 13:07:08   #
DennisK Loc: Pickle City,Illinois
 
Bunko.T wrote:
sarge69 wrote:
Think the government can't take your guns??? Read on. England is not the only country to do this and they are not the only country that has seen exponential increases in crime and criminal confidence!!! Just set back and do nothing and we will see this country fall into the same scenario as others. There is no way that the criminals will not have weapons!!!!! Whether they have guns, knives, or crowbars, it doesn't make any difference, you will not be able to defend yourselves against them.

Most law abiding citizens in this country who have guns are well
trained not only in how to use the gun, but when and when not to use it for self defense. It has been the law in many states that anyone wishing to have guns or hunt or target shoot must have a class before they can get a license for a handgun or a license to hunt. I took my class at Williams Gun Sight Co. in 1953. It was a volunteer class at that time, but when I hunted in Colorado I was required to give proof of a training course in gun handle. No one can tell me that the guns in this country are going to commit a crime. The crime is committed by a person and it is his/her decision to use what ever means of committing that crime.

Ask yourself where we would be today if it had not been for the armed citizen during the revolutionary war for our independence. They were not given weapons just to fight a war. Their weapons where their own!!!! It was those weapons and it was those determined men that gave us the freedom to have weapons and to live a life free of government interference. Please take some time to study what has
happened in England, Australia, South Africa and for that matter Germany during the reign of Hitler. Every time weapons were taken away their freedom and safety have suffered. Wake up American it can happen here!!!! Everyday there is some citizen or government official trying to eliminate your 2nd amendment rights!!!!!


"Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it. Autograph your work with excellence. "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those that matter - don't mind... and those that mind - don't matter."

... You're sound asleep when you hear a thump outside your bedroom door. Half-awake, and nearly paralyzed with fear, you hear muffled whispers.

At least two people have broken into your house and are moving your way. With your heart pumping, you reach down beside your bed and pick up your shotgun.

You rack a shell into the chamber, then inch toward the door and open it. In the darkness, you make out two shadows. One holds something that looks like a crowbar.

When the intruder brandishes it as if to strike, you raise the shotgun and fire. The blast knocks both thugs to the floor. One writhes and screams while the second man crawls to the front door and lurches outside.

As you pick up the telephone to call police, you know you're in trouble.

In your country, most guns were outlawed years before, and the few that are privately owned are so stringently regulated as to make them useless. Yours was never registered.

Police arrive and inform you that the second burglar has died. They arrest you for First Degree Murder and Illegal Possession of a Firearm.

When you talk to your attorney, he tells you not to worry: authorities will probably plea the case down to manslaughter.

"What kind of sentence will I get?" you ask.

"Only ten-to-twelve years," he replies, as if that's nothing. "Behave yourself, and you'll be out in seven."

The next day, the shooting is the lead story in the local newspaper. Somehow, you're portrayed as an eccentric vigilante while the two men you shot are represented as choirboys. Their friends and relatives can't find an unkind word to say about them..

Buried deep down in the article, authorities acknowledge that both "victims" have been arrested numerous times. But the next day's headline says it all: "Lovable Rogue Son Didn't Deserve to Die."

The thieves have been transformed from career criminals into Robin Hood-type pranksters.. As the days wear on, the story takes wings. The national media picks it up, then the international media.

The surviving burglar has become a folk hero.

Your attorney says the thief is preparing to sue you, and he'll probably win.

The media publishes reports that your home has been burglarized several times in the past and that you've been critical of local police for their lack of effort in apprehending the suspects.

After the last break-in, you told your neighbor that you would be prepared next time.

The District Attorney uses this to allege that you were lying in wait for the burglars.

A few months later, you go to trial.

The charges haven't been reduced, as your lawyer had so confidently predicted.

When you take the stand, your anger at the injustice of it all works against you..

Prosecutors paint a picture of you as a mean, vengeful man.

It doesn't take long for the jury to convict you of all charges.

The judge sentences you to life in prison.

This case really happened.

On August 22, 1999, Tony Martin of Emneth, Norfolk , England , killed one burglar and wounded a second.

In April, 2000, he was convicted and is now serving a life term..

How did it become a crime to defend one's own life in the once great British Empire ?

It started with the Pistols Act of 1903.

This seemingly reasonable law forbade selling pistols to minors or felons and established that handgun sales were to be made only to those who had a license. The Firearms Act of 1920 expanded licensing to include not only handguns but all firearms except shotguns..

Later laws passed in 1953 and 1967 outlawed the carrying of any weapon by private citizens and mandated the registration of all shotguns.

Momentum for total handgun confiscation began in earnest after the Hungerford mass shooting in 1987. Michael Ryan, a mentally disturbed man with a Kalashnikov rifle, walked down the streets shooting everyone he saw.

When the smoke cleared, 17 people were dead.

The British public, already de-sensitized by eighty years of "gun control", demanded even tougher restrictions. (The seizure of all privately owned handguns was the objective even though Ryan used a rifle.)
Nine years later, at Dunblane , Scotland ,Thomas Hamilton used a semi-automatic weapon to murder 16 children and a teacher at a public school.

For many years, the media had portrayed all gun owners as mentally unstable, or worse, criminals. Now the press had a real kook with which to beat up law-abiding gun owners. Day after day, week after week, the media gave up all pretense of objectivity and demanded a total ban on all handguns. The Dunblane Inquiry, a few months later, sealed the fate of the few sidearms still owned by private citizens.

During the years in which the British government incrementally took away most gun rights, the notion that a citizen had the right to armed self-defense came to be seen as vigilantism. Authorities refused to grant gun licenses to people who were threatened, claiming that self-defense was no longer considered a reason to own a gun. Citizens who shot burglars or robbers or rapists were charged while the real criminals were released.

Indeed, after the Martin shooting, a police spokesman was quoted as saying, "We cannot have people take the law into their own hands."

All of Martin's neighbors had been robbed numerous times, and several elderly people were severely injured in beatings by young thugs who had no fear of the consequences. Martin himself, a collector of antiques, had seen most of his collection trashed or stolen by burglars.

When the Dunblane Inquiry ended, citizens who owned handguns were given three months to turn them over to local authorities.

Being good British subjects, most people obeyed the law. The few who didn't were visited by police and threatened with ten-year prison sentences if they didn't comply.

Police later bragged that they'd taken nearly 200,000 handguns from private citizens.

How did the authorities know who had handguns? The guns had been registered and licensed. Kind of like cars. Sound familiar?

WAKE UP AMERICA; THIS IS WHY OUR FOUNDING FATHERS PUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IN OUR CONSTITUTION.

"...It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams
=-======================
Asking our British readers, is this all true ?

Sarge



:shock:
Think the government can't take your guns??? Read... (show quote)


At the risk of upsetting the hornets nest Sarge, ole mate, In Australia we don't have crackpots snapping & going to the school or cinema to slaughter folks. Sure, We have our fair share of baddies & I had my rifle 'bought' from me by the Gov't. I get angry too, but would I shoot a bad arse? Well not to kill. Having a gun for protection is crazy. Here, if we used it for protection we'd be in the manure for discharging it. In fact if a burglar gets beaten up by me in my house, he'd probably sue me for assault. Just last night on the news, a cop got hung out to dry because he grabbed a girl who had just 'head butted' him, by the throat & took her down in a riotous situation. She should have been crucified but it's easier to do the lawman. Crazy but true. But I know where I'd rather live. Here without guns & a few crack pots.
I think US's problem needs a big decision to get control of the gun fiasco. It happens too regular. What if it was one of yours. Either way?
Look at the super nations. They have enough nukes to blow us all to "Kingdom Come". Why?? Who comes out smelling like roses? No one. We're all like burnt meat.
quote=sarge69 Think the government can't take you... (show quote)


You can't seriously think that it is ok for it to be illegal to defend yourself and your family in your own home.Just look at nature.Every animal on earth uses what it can to defend itself when attacked...whether it be claws,teeth,beaks or even taking flight or running.Unless said animal is caught by surprize,it doesn't just stand there and get eaten.

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Aug 17, 2012 13:19:07   #
DennisK Loc: Pickle City,Illinois
 
derekmadge wrote:
Clicker2014 wrote:
sarge69 wrote:
I have concealed weapon permits for Maine, New Hampshire.

Gun is beside bed in drawer. Told wife if someone comes in and she needs to shoot

"Fire 7 times - If it still moves, there's one more in the chamber "

Sarge


Great info!

I am from Canada, but spend 6 months in U.S. along RGV, Texas...see and hear lots and sometimes wish we could have protection... I may be wrong, but I think that here we can only shoot an intruder here in Canada after they rob you (and who knows what else!!) and they are outside the house... so I guess we need to shoot them and toss them out on the porch??.... go figure!!! It just makes no sense that we cannot defend ourselves and our children....no sense at all...

Also my father died (in his sleep) a few years back and of course mom called us kids and 911...well there were more police/ambulance/rescue trucks than I had seen in a long time. After a few hours and things settled down, the police asked (as my father was a retired police officer) if he had any guns. He had several as he was a hunter too. They said they would have to take them. We stepped forward and said no....as my Mom was a hunter too....:-) She was 78 years old...but still had her license and FAC....they never got the guns..

:thumbup: :-D
quote=sarge69 I have concealed weapon permits for... (show quote)


- Re the legal hunting rifles, the system worked- you did not have to give them up.

I'm in Canada too and am so glad we don't have the paranoid gun mentality I see in the US.(Though it's beginnng to infect us.) I feel safe almost anywhere. I do, in fact, walk down dark alleyways sometimes. I don't have a weapon and it'd be extraordinary if a ne'er-do-well in the alley did. If he did, he'd get my wallet. So what? The feeling of peace and security is worth a hundred times what I carry in my wallet. Last Fall I did have a contretemps with two guys in a dark path in a small park. The discussion got heated but no-one had weapons. And we all walked away unarmed and unharmed.

The UK has been essentially (citizen) gun free for as long as I know of - the police only started carrying them, except in special circumstances, a couple of decades ago...and while knife weapons offenses are up, it is the high unemployment and drugs that often comes with a social milieu of hopelessness and unemployment that makes people act like animals to survive- gangs and such.

There will always be people who, bent on destroying, will get guns and there will be gun tragedies- we have some in Canada too. This paranoia about the government knowing you have a handgun- a device the sole purpose of which is to kill people - is silly.(Target shootig IS fun but that's not the primary purpose of a gun. Buy an XBox.) My anecdote concerns the crazy people who lived in a semi-detached house next to relatives of mine- drinking and drugs and *registered* long arms, a lovely combination. When the police had to make frequent calls to the address I am glad they knew who had the *registered* guns. (Who gets their knickers in a knot over car registration with the gov't? What about non-elected , non-gov't corporations, far less trustworthy than an elected gov't, having all you electronics, furniture, health records and banking information registered with them? "We the people"? Do you not believe the people control the government? If so, you have a bigger constitutional problem than the 2nd amendment.)

Now, thanks in part to to pressure, "guidance" and (I've read but can't point to right now) funding from the foreign lobby group the NRA, our conservative Federal Gov't has scrapped, on the pretence of high cost and ineffectiveness, the long gun registry. (It DID cost far too much to set up but that happened a decade earlier and the money was spent; the program continued at a modest cost and was consulted by police thousands of times a day across the country, no doubt, something that will make some ideologues shudder. And yet I am safer for it, to the point where (2, I think) provinces are suing the Feds to stop destroying the information. (So much for the "waste of money" argument - after railing against the waste of the setup money they want to flush every nickel down the toilet.)

Back to Canada and intruders. First, you cannot shoot someone "after they rob you". You can defend yourself to the point - and not beyond it - where the perpetrator is not a threat. That could be that he's running away, or you have subdued him- and you must be careful because if you happened to beat him into submission (not usually a wise strategy compared to walking away from the situation if possible) you cannot strike him again after the threat is over. (A high profile case in Toronto a couple of years ago had two shop owners capture a known and repeat shoplifter and restrain him: OK to that point. Then they beat him for some time before calling the police. Charged with assault.) You cannot simply shoot anyone who enters your home. There have been countless tragedies in the US caused by this nonsense.

The US model has everyone armed or assumed to be armed so it is more likely the intruder will shoot the moment he detects movement. So the odds of someone getting shot could be as high as 50-50, compared to my preference where the odds of someone getting my stereo are higher than the odds of someone getting shot.

Frankly, while I admire America and Americans for many things, this Hollywood macho glossed, armed to the teeth do-unto-others-before-they-do-unto you mentality, built on the Cult of the Second Amendment is nonsense. I'll tell you what- if King George ever invades you again, or even if Queen Elizabeth or Margaret Thatcher's ghost invade, I'll come and help you repel their muskets. It's a different world and the US doesn't realize it's sick.

This should inflame some rhetoric and you are welcome to go at it but I no longer hurl rhetoric or URLs around on this issue. I won't change your mind and others won't change mine.
quote=Clicker2014 quote=sarge69 I have concealed... (show quote)


You are absolutely entitled to your opinion,and can continue to live as you please...just don't try bringing your "victim" mentality here.

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Aug 17, 2012 13:20:16   #
DennisK Loc: Pickle City,Illinois
 
bkyser wrote:
as my favorite T-shirt says. Guns don't kill people. Men with pretty daughters do.


Larry the Cable Guy says "Guns don't kill people,husbands who come home early do". lol

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Aug 17, 2012 13:28:17   #
rocar7 Loc: Alton, England
 
Bunko.T wrote:
Well I put it to y'all. Let's get back to the Cinemas Schools & Temples massacres. What's the answer to that problem. It happens with monotonous regularity.


Since Hungerford, after which rifles were banned, and Dunblane, after which handguns were banned, we haven't had anything like that. It only happens in America, where guns are legal. Draw your own conclusions.

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Aug 17, 2012 13:33:35   #
derekmadge Loc: Waterloo, Ontario,Canada
 
Quote:


You are absolutely entitled to your opinion,and can continue to live as you please...just don't try bringing your "victim" mentality here.


Thank you- just not sure how feeling free and safe almost all the time in almost all situations creates a victim of me. I feel sorry for Americans immersed- maybe that should be sumberged- in their gun mythologies.

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Aug 17, 2012 14:37:28   #
DennisK Loc: Pickle City,Illinois
 
derekmadge wrote:
Quote:


You are absolutely entitled to your opinion,and can continue to live as you please...just don't try bringing your "victim" mentality here.


Thank you- just not sure how feeling free and safe almost all the time in almost all situations creates a victim of me. I feel sorry for Americans immersed- maybe that should be sumberged- in their gun mythologies.


Frankly,and I don't mean to be a smart ass;I just don't know how to put this in any other way.We really don't need nor want your sympathy.We can manager just fine.After all,the OP is talking about AMERICA.

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Aug 17, 2012 15:30:55   #
derekmadge Loc: Waterloo, Ontario,Canada
 
DennisK wrote:
derekmadge wrote:
Quote:


You are absolutely entitled to your opinion,and can continue to live as you please...just don't try bringing your "victim" mentality here.


Thank you- just not sure how feeling free and safe almost all the time in almost all situations creates a victim of me. I feel sorry for Americans immersed- maybe that should be sumberged- in their gun mythologies.


Frankly,and I don't mean to be a smart ass;I just don't know how to put this in any other way.We really don't need nor want your sympathy.We can manager just fine.After all,the OP is talking about AMERICA.
quote=derekmadge quote br br You are absolutel... (show quote)


Understood, but your friends are concerned about you.

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Aug 17, 2012 15:37:12   #
derekmadge Loc: Waterloo, Ontario,Canada
 
ole sarg wrote:
RixPix I often have to go with my best friend who like you is involved in carrying expensive stuff. He has been shot 5 times and killed two assailants, wounded another and save two cops lives in the shootout in Miami.

Now I walk behind him with my Baretta and he with his Smith. We are just too old to get shot up or beaten up. We both go to the range at least twice a month and see the eye doc on a regular basis.

Those totting should be checked out on a regular basis just like driving....
RixPix I often have to go with my best friend who ... (show quote)


In case I come off as anti-gun under any circumstances, these and similar ones take a trained gun carrier. When I was growing up in Canada the only people permitted to carry handguns were police, armoured car staff and prison guards.

It was funny- for me- years ago when I was a courier, running WAY behind on an unfamiliar route so I was literally sprinting at top speed out of the grocery story towards my car. Ran almost into, and then straight past 4 armoured car guards. 3 escorting the 4th who had his hands full of money bags. The three clamped their hands on their guns and the look of panic on the fourth one was ...interesting. I didn't mean to give them a scare but then, if one had panicked, it could have been an unfunny story. I've always approached guards slowly since then- don't like to scare them!

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Aug 17, 2012 15:39:17   #
Wabbit Loc: Arizona Desert
 
b.c. wrote:
We have gone though this discuion before. Those who do not have a weapon are the ones the bad guys do not mess with and those that do not have a weapon are the ones we pick up off the street with a knife wound or a bulte in them. In short I agree with the one that said the only way you are going to get my weapons is to take them from my cold dead hand.


Hey Doc ..... that last sentence was from me ...... your second sentence makes no sense at all, maybe proof read it .....

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Aug 17, 2012 15:47:43   #
Wabbit Loc: Arizona Desert
 
Phreedom wrote:
RixPix wrote:
sarge69 wrote:
I have concealed weapon permits for Maine, New Hampshire.

Gun is beside bed in drawer. Told wife if someone comes in and she needs to shoot

"Fire 7 times - If it still moves, there's one more in the chamber "

Sarge


My feelings on a concealed weapons permit is very simple I have one because I deal in expensive portable merchandise and as such I am a target for criminal activity. I cannot understand why anyone who is not in a similar profession would need to carry a gun. I also believe that annual qualification tests including vision should be required for ALL individuals over the age of 55 who wish to carry a concealed weapon.
quote=sarge69 I have concealed weapon permits for... (show quote)


I'm not trying to start an argument here but why would your dealing in "expensive portable merchandise" mark you as a target and thus qualify your personal need to carry? What are the outstanding circumstances? Do you carry when not engaged in your dealings?

Might not John or Joan Q public consider their jewelry and wallets as "expensive portable merchandise"? What protects a victim against a perp who becomes enraged at finding meager pickings and shoots in frustration?

I guess I'm trying to understand why other's right to carry would be less worthy than yours. After all, it's only property and probably insured.

As for relicensing, it makes good sense to ensure that someone is still qualified to possess and use something (even driving a car) that can potentially have grave consequences. Still, annual renewals seem a bit excessive. Why not every ten years, same as passports? And why age 55 rather than 65?
quote=RixPix quote=sarge69 I have concealed weap... (show quote)


Hey Doc ..... besides, as one ages the more important a weapon will become (survival of the fittest) ..... how many 80 year old crooks with guns do you think are out there?

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Aug 17, 2012 15:56:07   #
dtcracer
 
ted45 wrote:
Bunko.T wrote:
Well I put it to y'all. Let's get back to the Cinemas Schools & Temples massacres. What's the answer to that problem. It happens with monotonous regularity.


Actually it doesn't happen with "regularity". Since 1966 when Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31 there have been approximately 20 mass shootings throughout the World.

The worst was in Norway where Anders Behring Breivik killed 80 people at a summer camp and another 7 in Oslo on the same day. -2011

Martin Bryant, of Tasmania Australia managed to killed 20 people in a cafeteria and another 15 while making his getaway. -1996

Thomas Hamilton kills 16 kindergarten children and their teacher in elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland. -1996

An armed citizen could not have prevented any of those shootings. At best they might have limited the final death toll. A nut is a nut and you can't predict where or when they will snap.

America gets a bad rap for "gun" violence and you tend to think it only happens here but the truth is the problem is not unique to the US.

The interesting part of this is that since the first recorded mass murder in 1966 at the University of Texas the anti gun movement has continually gained steam. Well meaning people have disarmed themselves and as we move away from the “killer” mentality that we are labeled with, more and more people argue for giving up the guns. Before 1966 the vast majority of this country had weapons of one sort or another. Many of the Veterans coming home from the Great War were permitted to keep their rifles and take them home. I know a great many people who discuss this issue on both sides but I don’t know anyone, cops included, who has had firsthand experience with gun violence. It just isn’t as common as the press would have us believe. Yes, I know about the murder rates in the big cities. According to the FBI stats those murders are confined to relatively small areas and are decreasing.

Most Americans that have guns have them for sport use. Most would not use them in anger. I have killed and understand the trauma attached. I did it because of instinct and my USMC training. The guy was trying to kill me; it was war, so it seemed right. I would never do it voluntarily. It just isn’t worth the problems.

You guys from other countries can take your sanctimonious, holier than thou attitude and stuff it. We like to have the freedom to live our lives the way we want. If a nut bag pops up now and then; that's life.
quote=Bunko.T Well I put it to y'all. Let's get b... (show quote)


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Aug 17, 2012 15:57:07   #
Wabbit Loc: Arizona Desert
 
DennisK wrote:
steve40 wrote:
Maybe? its not the crooks with guns, we need to worry! about.


You are kidding,right?


Hey Doc ..... "nope" and I'm guessing you didn't read all the posts ..... btw I agree ..... and you're in Illinois ..... If I lived in Illinois I'd probably have two carry's .....

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Aug 17, 2012 16:07:46   #
dtcracer
 
rocar7 wrote:
Bunko.T wrote:
Well I put it to y'all. Let's get back to the Cinemas Schools & Temples massacres. What's the answer to that problem. It happens with monotonous regularity.


Since Hungerford, after which rifles were banned, and Dunblane, after which handguns were banned, we haven't had anything like that. It only happens in America, where guns are legal. Draw your own conclusions.


What about Norway last year? A gunman killed almost 100 people, considered the worse mass killing in modern history, and far worse than anything here in the US. And they have gun laws very similar to the UK. He was able to kill so many because no one was able to defend themselves.

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