alaskan

Just of of curiosity: have you ever seen (or heard of) Grand Canyon of Stikine located in B.C.,Canada?

photogrl57 Loc: Tennessee

Can't say that I have but I do have a friend that lives up there and drives a semi, I could ask her if you like. Wow! I just Googled it watched a couple videos on Utube and read this story. Fascinating. Not sure if I'd be brave enough to try the river though lol. Very cool thanks for the info.
http://www.dougammons.com/other-stories-stikine_short.html

les_stockton Loc: Eastern Oklahoma

No, but it sounds like I want to visit there some time.

alaskan

Thanks for the interesting link I did not know about.The nickname for this Canyon is "The Best Kept Secret" and my poll here confirms it.I have been around and inside this Canyon quite a few times and I agree:it gets hairy all right.There is a reason why there are almost no photos from the inside available anywhere, I plan to post some here in the future.

alaskan

Yes,relatively not many people ever heard about this Canyon and even fewer have been inside.It will never become mass attraction like Grand Canyon in Arizona because of its location
even when you can get there by a road.I plan to do some posts on this subject in the future,then you can decide if you want to go there.

Doug Ammons

I’m the author of the story “Photogrl57” linked to about the Stikine. I can help readers understand why the Stikine canyon is a “best kept secret”. Simply put - because it is essentially inaccessible even in this day and age.

This is a 60 mile long, 1000+ foot deep, sheer-walled gorge hidden in the wilderness. There are no trails, and there is no vantage point you can get to even if you could drive or hike along the rim. I know of several people who have done this gnarly bushwacking trek over the years, but were disappointed because they still could not see much of the canyon. The only vantage point that allows you to see anything, is from a helicopter or a kayak. To be in there in a kayak, you have to be an experienced Class 5+ expedition paddler. And even using a chopper, there are almost no places you can land, or even skid land, even up on the rim. Inside the canyon, there are only a half-dozen spots where a chopper might land in the 30+ mile heart of the beast. Plus it’s illegal to do so.

So given these things it’s never going to be a major tourist attraction because to see it you have to be 4000 feet up in the air above it, or at least flying through it. And it isn’t a rafting run – no raft has ever descended the entire canyon. The kayaking is extremely difficult, with the run being one of the hardest in the world. And while a kayaker gets an incredible ring-side seat traveling down the canyon in the middle of the power, it is so threatening one can hardly relax enough to take the place in. Basically, you are so focused on trying to stay alive you don’t have much time or the mindset to sight-see. I’ve been up there four times and kayaked the river through the canyon three times.

From the point of view of photography, the canyon is dark and deep, and often the weather is terrible. So light and angles, depth of field, panoramas, even simple places to get some vantage point – all the kinds of things that you’d normally be working with or aiming for, are extremely limited. You are face to face with a sinuous gorge cut into the depths of the earth. Frankly, from the collective photographs of some 25 expeditions there, the place is so intense, stunning, and so dramatic it is essentially impossible to capture.

The Grand Canyon of the Stikine is one of the wonders of the world, but there’s no way to appreciate it in any normal sense.

Below the main grand canyon from Telegraph Creek out to Wrangell there are some 100+ miles that anybody can do by raft or touring kayak, or even jetboat. There are no rapids, it’s all fast moving flat water in a beautiful wide canyon with hanging glaciers and big peaks hemming you in - amazing scenery that John Muir called “a 100 mile long Yosemite”.

I’m about to come out with a book on the kayaking history in the main Grand Canyon of the Stikine, simply entitled “The Stikine” which should be printed within the next six months. It tells the history of the place, along with the best photography from river and canyon level gathered from about fifteen different descents. This will be printed at the highest quality level, and will include scenics and action. Also, part of the book will be the story of my solo descent in 1992, when I went up by myself, didn’t tell anybody I was putting on the river, and descended through the gorge.

All I can say is, it is an astonishing, daunting, and overwhelming place to deal with alone when you’re down in the gut of it, the rock walls closing in and towering above, and the roar of the river around you. It’s not an issue of fear, but of handling the most intense, deadly, and rawest truth.

Other Books;
Stikine: The Great River (a very well done large format book by Larry Feigehen with wonderful photographs)
www.mywestworld.com/living/environment-sustainability/stikine-the-great-river/

Stikine (Alaska Geographic) Out of print

The Grand Canyon of the Stikine (2005, by Doug Ammons) Article in Kayak Session
Also text printed at www.dougammons.com

National Geographic magazine carried an article by Wade Davis several years ago (2009) on the Stikine area, together with some excellent photography. There was only one aerial shot of the canyon itself. It is only one feature of an astonishing and huge wilderness.

Wade Davis just published his book “Sacred Headwaters” about the headwaters wilderness of the Stikine and Iskut drainages. He is actually in Banff at the Book festival this weekend (November 5-6) giving a talk about it.

The headwaters area from the Spatzizi plateau is threatened by mines and logging. This is a stunning wilderness area and includes both the Stikine and Iskut drainages. The Iskut has a canyon on it that is nearly as dramatic as the Stikine, but is much shorter.

And there are these movies:
1981 first kayaking attempt American Sportsman (unavailable, but can be watched in low res on
www.exchile.com/kayakchilehistoricalvideos.html

1985 first kayaking decent “Hell or high water” (Canadian Geographic, and National Geogrpahic Explorer)

1999 Stikine River Fever (National Geographic Explorer) www.exchile.com/kayakchilehistoricalvideos.html

2004 “The Great River” by Olaf Obsommer www.BIG-O-PRODUCTIONS.com

Probably six or eight other kayaking films have contained sections on Stikine descents.

So, head up there if you want, but be prepared to have the place demand a lot of you. There’s a big downpayment in energy, cost, and commitment before you’ll see anything - and nothing is easy. But, as in all things, the harder you have to struggle for something, the more it will mean to you. That is the language of the Stikine, and why it will always be a “best kept secret”.

Doug Ammons

photogrl57 Loc: Tennessee

Very good explanation of it Doug. Thank you so much for filling in the gaps for us. You are truly an adventurer.

p.s. I knew I didn't want to attempt that river :)
Kudos :thumbup:

alaskan

Doug,you missed one book: "Roll On! Discovering the Wild Stikine River" available at www.stikineriverbooks.com (I am involved with that one as a photographer).
I am glad you responded to my poll,could you clarify one thing for me please? In your article "A short history of the Grand Canyon of the Stikine River" (great reading) you mention there were 18 successful descends,how do you define "successful"? Did those include ALL THE RAPIDS or some of them were avoided?To me only entering from the upper end and leaving thru the bottom end doing all the rapids would mean successful descend. I have been inside the Canyon quite a few times up to about 35 miles upstream,way past Tahltan river..

Doug Ammons

In response to the question posed to me:
"you mention there were 18 successful descends,how do you define "successful"? Did those include ALL THE RAPIDS or some of them were avoided?To me only entering from the upper end and leaving thru the bottom end doing all the rapids would mean successful descend. I have been inside the Canyon quite a few times up to about 35 miles upstream,way past Tahltan river.."

First an update. That article was written in 2005, and so by now there have been about 25+ groups who have run the gorge since the early 1980s. Overall, about 12 teams have had to climb out, which generally is generated by a terrible experience, and then leads to another horrific experience off the river.

Really, only the very best expedition kayakers can handle the place, and it depends hugely on water level. This last year, at least 5 teams were set to head in, myself among them, but the water levels were almost twice as high as is feasible at the upper end. Basically, if you go in at such levels, you’ll be flushed from one rapid into another through immense river-wide features like a Waimea Bay closeout surf. If your spray skirt comes loose, or you get your paddle stripped out of your hands, you are dead. There are no eddies, the river geysers off the walls into the center of the current, and you’re in a phenomenally powerful exploding firehose of water 30-40 miles long careening from wall to wall. That’s a long time to hold your breath…

“Successful descents” amount to putting on at the Cassiar bridge, kayaking through the gorge regardless of the number of portages, and taking out at Tahltan or Telegraph Creek. Teams have from 10 portages to as few as two, usually from three to six. One team, under very special circumstances, did it with one portage.

The problem is that even at optimum low late summer/early fall levels, the river is still huge, the rapids are on the verge of unrunnable, and you are so exposed, the water is so powerful, it is so difficult to get out of the gorge, that mistakes or any problems are potentially deadly. There are hundreds of class IV and V rapids, probably about 20-25 of them that are Class V+. And three or four that really have to be called Class VI. Site Zed is the biggest rapid, and the only one that has not been run completely because it is beyond Class V+. It’s basically a massive cascade dropping perhaps 120 to 140 feet over 300 hundred yards, where the river pounds over house sized boulders, with at least four 20 to 25 foot drops in it, followed by another four or so major drops all without eddies. It’s a runnable cascading waterfall rapid, but the paddlers are self-contained, carrying all their gear in their boats, and the rapid is huge, very long, complex, and the river is trapped between rock walls. If you have trouble there, you’d first have to survive swimming the rapid – which is a marginal proposition - then getting out of the water between the house-sized boulders or somehow up the overhanging walls. Then, you’d have to do a big-wall Yosemite type climb up a 1000 foot cliff, and if you did all that, then got out of the canyon, it is a three to five day bushwack to the nearest road. Zed will be run sometime. Rapids roughly akin to it are run – although infrequently – when they are roadside (Jacob’s Ladder on the NF Payette in Idaho at high water). But in the middle of the Stikine canyon, it’s a different deal.

Regarding your definition of “success” as only when one does all the rapids. Paddlers would consider that unrealistic, given the huge range of things that rivers do and the awkward dangerous terrain we deal with – waterfalls, huge ledges backed up by river-wide backwashes (“holes”), complex rapids, etc. Certainly, a “no portage” descent is an ideal that we shoot for. However, it is infeasible in many situations, because rapids exist that will kill you, are unpassable, deadly. One “avoids” them in order to stay alive, which seems like a good ideal itself :) and it doesn’t undermine the quality or accomplishment of a descent. Consider what you’re saying: if you do 99 hard rapids out of 100, but not the one where the river disappears under a junkpile of broken truck sized blocks around which you have to do a roped climbing portage and rappel back down into the river – that’s not a successful descent? If one wants to have such a purist attitude, then it basically relegates virtually all of the best runs in the world as “unsuccessful”. However nicely it feels to assert that purist statement, it doesn’t reflect reality. However, we shoot for lessening the number of portages, and when rapids are potentially runnable, descents with more portages can seen as lesser descents, so the ideal is recognized.

There are many different factors that go into the choice of running something, or considering whether it is runnable - it depends on the water level, on changes in the rapids (the Stikine canyon is alive geologically, and rapids change from year to year) – and frankly, portages can be as threatening and potentially deadly as attempting the rapid. The portage at Site Zed is on a combination of extremely unstable rock and river scoured house-sized boulders – two years ago one exceptional paddler fell 35 feet onto his back and fortunately didn’t’ break anything, but was badly bruised and hurt. The portage ends abruptly, forcing you to launch your boat from a inopportune place directly into a massive awkward rapid.

There is really only one “easy” portage of a hard rapid on the Stikine, around a rapid named “The Hole that Ate Chicago”, which is run at some levels, but becomes nasty and potentially unrunnable at others. Additionally, it’s directly above one of the largest rapids (V-drive), which is just around the corner. So, if you have any trouble in HAC but rag-dolled through it alive, you’d be flushed into an undercut wall for 50 yards probably not being able to breathe, then flushed directly into a huge drop – probably a 35 foot vertical with the entire huge river pounding into it, which then goes for 200 yards in a sluice-box to a 90-degree turn and matchsticked log jam - that probably would kill you.

In some cases, one portages because of the threat, but the Stikine defines territory where there are a number of “must-do” rapids, without the prospect of portage, and so they must be run regardless of anything else. But if there is a choice, if a paddler is having trouble, been thrashed upstream, hurt (I once broke two ribs in there and continued paddling), lost his confidence, or has reached the limit of what he can handle, then he may portage in some cases as a lesser-of-evils choice. That might be disappointing with respect to the ideal, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t a successful descent. I guarantee you that NOBODY comes out of the canyon regardless of the number of portages, and isn’t wide-eyed in astonishment and gratitude. Nobody who makes it that far feels that they didn’t have a successful descent because they didn’t run all the rapids.

The Stikine is amazing in that respect – the river is right at the top end, on the verge of unrunnable (and indeed unrunnable at levels above 20-25,000 cfs), yet at the “lower” levels ( where it’s still a huge river) almost everything is runnable. It’s amazing to be able to do hundreds of high quality rapids including a great many that are off the scale even among experts. Having only a few portages in the midst of 60 miles of such difficulty and harshness is almost unheard of world wide.

I hope that explains the situation. Thanks for the question.

Doug

alaskan

Doug,I really appreciate your lengthy answer and I greatly admire what you guys do because I could not accomplish anything like that.However I do have some idea what is the Canyon all about.I have been in Telegraph Creek and the Canyon itself (in a jet boat) quite a few times.I drove from T.C. to Dease lake thru the Canyon several times,flew above the Canyon in a Cessna from Sawmill lake and in a Beechcraft Bonanza inside the Canyon,well below the rim.And seen some descends on TV assisted with portaging by a helicopter.I also saw video "Life on the Vertical" and took plenty of photos inside the Canyon myself.I am aware even a boat bigger than your kayak can get in a serious trouble in the "easy" part of the Canyon when stuck on a rock with front window knocked out by a wave while Stikine river was flowing thru the boat almost drowning the passengers. Granted,each attempt to enter the Canyon from upstream is insanity and those coming out alive used one of their lives.When you say "successful" descent you guys in the white water business may know it only means to survive and to do what it takes including portages and avoiding the worst spots.Well us chickens may not realize so,I talked to a lot of people and they all thought "successful descent" meant getting in your kayak to enter the Canyon and stayng on the water till you reached the exit.So when you are dealing with a general public you should add to your "successful descent" line also words that NOBODY ever successfuly made it thru ALL the rapids.Witholding these simple words kind of make liars out of the people stating the truth that nobody ever conquered all the Canyon`s rapids and lived.I am not trying to lessen your accomplishement but the only correct statement avoiding any misunderstandings is "there were successful descents but nobody did all the rapids so far".Thank you and take care.

Doug Ammons

Thanks!

Everybody finds their own limits in one way or another. If you've seen the place in those ways, then you understand.

My comments weren't meant to be elitist, but to underscore the nature of the place. It just isn't a place one can see without effort. But if a person does make the effort, they will be stunned in amazement, as you know.

The more photographers who go up there and make the commitment to the Stikine area, the better. The more photographs exploring its beauty, the better. All the threats from mining and damming are still there - and the hidden nature makes it hard to show people how magnificent it is, and what a loss it would be to have it ruined.

I hear what you're saying about portages, etc. The problem is that people really can't understand the distinctions until they've been exposed to the ideas and know more about the sport. Kayaking is a peculiar sport and typically people who don't have direct experience do not understand what the dynamics are, how the water features have to be handled, what the limitations are. So while I agree with you about being accurate, I also know from experience that you cannot communicate distinctions from the beginning.

You know, as an aside, even if one does all the rapids, one never "conquers" any river. We are pushed to the limit, but it flows on, endlessly, powerfully, and effortlessly through the seasons; we can only be on the Stikine when it is near its lowest levels, because it's just too much beyond that. And even then, we only live with it for a few short days, and then leave. When there, you don't live on your terms, but on its. The amazing thing to me is that humans can actually learn to live with such powers briefly and come back from them safely. That's really the message to focus on, and there's no conquering at all, just a deep humility in the face of nature's power and beauty.

It's a funny turn of speech - people also often speak of mountains being conquered after they've been climbed, but this is the same sort of problem. Everest has been climbed over 600 times, and if the snow conditions are good, the weather is good, there are fixed lines and the bottled O2 and all the gear works, you acclimatize well, then dozens of people can climb it in a few days. But the instant the mountain or weather shrug, people die, everybody flees off the rock for their lives. It doesn't matter how tough we are, the forces at play around us are infinitely greater.

The Stikine is a testament to that reality.

I'd love to see your photographs at some point. I looked on your website at the five or six - the fall colors are spectacular. Very nice composition and textures. I'd be happy to send you copies of the two books I've already published. Perhaps we can do an in-kind trade of your book for them.

Country's Mama Loc: Michigan

I am way late on this poll. But no I never have heard of it.

Horseart Loc: Alabama

Me too and sure I'll never see it.

gonate Loc: sacramento,calif

NO (not me)
gonate

phcaan Loc: Willow Springs, MO

Well, I am going to gather the cows, dogs, and chickens for support drag a log down to the pond and paddle across with the ducks! Now that is adventure!! :lol: :lol: