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Optical filter or no optical filter.
Oct 8, 2018 14:01:04 #
aflundi wrote:
That's not quite right. The D800 and D800E both have dual birefringent layers, but the D800E does *NOT* have an AA filter. The birefringent layers are arranged on the D800E in a way where the 2nd undoes exactly what the 1st does and thereby turns the two layers into nothing more than an inert layer which is only there to maintain the same optical path length as the D800 but with no AA.
Still it's quite not the same as being sans AA filter..
Oct 8, 2018 14:09:06 #
MT Shooter wrote:
The one camera available both ways was the Nikon D... (show quote)
I agree and bought the D800e for the same reason. Never a regret.
Oct 8, 2018 14:09:13 #
aflundi wrote:
Saying bumble bees shouldn't be able to fly is like saying AA filters aren't important. People make up all kinds of stuff.
Bumble bees *do* fly, and sensors without AA filters *do* have artifacts.
Bumble bees *do* fly, and sensors without AA filters *do* have artifacts.
Gee did I step on your toes? I never said AA filters aren't important and aviation technical types have been saying that thing about bumble bees for at least 7 decades. Lighten up. Much better informed people than I, working for the best camera/optics companies in the world do know what they are talking about with reference to what professional photographers need and/or want. It is plainly obvious that the artifacts you mention do not concern them to any great extent, if at all. Or are you the only one with proper the technique that is able to see them.
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Oct 8, 2018 14:40:37 #
Rich1939 wrote:
I am under the impression that high density sensor... (show quote)
As I read it it is 100% psychological and marketing so the consumers think they are getting better photos. I found it interesting that poor lens quality acts as the AA filter so the high MP AA filterless bodies get away with not having the filter due to poor lens performance.
But this discussion has been very enlightening as to reality and marketing hype.
Reminds me of the story of the Kings New Clothes where everyone commented on how splendid the new clothes were until some honest little boy said BS there aren't any. Sort of the same it seems in the AA debate. Technical facts vs marketing hype. The hype sells, makes more money for a less expensive camera to make and the consumer thinks they are getting something better when it is really the poor lens performance doing the work and lack of steadiness while hand holding.
This is what I seem to be seeing in these excellent technical responses I have never heard before.
Thank you. Great education.
Oct 8, 2018 14:57:32 #
Has anyone had the OLPF filters removed from the their sensors say on a D750 or D6xx - is it possible? If so how much would it cost?
Oct 8, 2018 15:03:27 #
aflundi
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
chrisg-optical wrote:
Still it's quite not the same as being sans AA filter..
Yes, it is.
It can't be an AA filter if it doesn't spread the light. It doesn't spread the light and therefore is not an AA filter. It is nothing more than an optical path lengthener.
Oct 8, 2018 15:26:17 #
Thank you once again Aflundi for your explanations. You seem to be very knowledgeable in this area, I regret I am not.
To rephrase myself, except for the D100 that required more sharpening due to the strong anti aliasing filter modern cameras seem to have a weaker filter and in my case and with my cameras (Nikon D7000, D610. Olympus EP-5 and EM-10 Mk II) I use a slight amount of sharpening with Affinity Photo and the images look super sharp. Indeed when I use Topaz Adjust I have to cut down the effect to about 80% because otherwise over sharpening is evident upon looking at the file in the computer.
I have a friend of mine, retired ophthalmologist who bought two D750. He is continually sending me images he makes of his travels. I know the D750 has a AA filter and instead his images are super sharp and full of details. I repeat once again, I do not know of anyone using a modern camera with AA filter that complains of poor sharpness and in my case I have not experienced with any of my cameras even using old AI lenses issues with sharpness.
To rephrase myself, except for the D100 that required more sharpening due to the strong anti aliasing filter modern cameras seem to have a weaker filter and in my case and with my cameras (Nikon D7000, D610. Olympus EP-5 and EM-10 Mk II) I use a slight amount of sharpening with Affinity Photo and the images look super sharp. Indeed when I use Topaz Adjust I have to cut down the effect to about 80% because otherwise over sharpening is evident upon looking at the file in the computer.
I have a friend of mine, retired ophthalmologist who bought two D750. He is continually sending me images he makes of his travels. I know the D750 has a AA filter and instead his images are super sharp and full of details. I repeat once again, I do not know of anyone using a modern camera with AA filter that complains of poor sharpness and in my case I have not experienced with any of my cameras even using old AI lenses issues with sharpness.
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Oct 8, 2018 15:27:00 #
aflundi
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Rich1939 wrote:
... I never said AA filters aren't important
Well, that is more-or-less exactly what you said, and you say it again below.
Quote:
and aviation technical types have been saying that thing about bumble bees for at least 7 decades.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bumblebees-cant-fly/
Quote:
Much better informed people than I, working for the best camera/optics companies in the world do know what they are talking about with reference to what professional photographers need and/or want. It is plainly obvious that the artifacts you mention do not concern them to any great extent, if at all. Or are you the only one with proper the technique that is able to see them.
To use your words, lighten up.
The point is that the artifacts are there. They can be reduced by motion blur, soft focus, very soft lenses, etc. which may explain in part why many people don't see them.
Oct 8, 2018 15:35:33 #
[quote=aflundi]
The point is that the artifacts are there. They can be reduced by motion blur, soft focus, very soft lenses, etc. which may explain in part why many people don't see them.
Since even Leica has removed the AA filter I'll take their actions over your word. The OP was looking for guidance and when what is probably the most respected company in the business goes in a direction it sure seems prudent to follow their lead if you are looking to purchase a high density sensor camera.
The point is that the artifacts are there. They can be reduced by motion blur, soft focus, very soft lenses, etc. which may explain in part why many people don't see them.
Since even Leica has removed the AA filter I'll take their actions over your word. The OP was looking for guidance and when what is probably the most respected company in the business goes in a direction it sure seems prudent to follow their lead if you are looking to purchase a high density sensor camera.
Oct 8, 2018 15:38:04 #
cambriaman wrote:
I agree and bought the D800e for the same reason. Never a regret.
I bought a D800 with the AA filter.
I did that because I have been working with AA filters, sampling, and measuring the distortion in the telecom industry since the early 1970s. I knew positively which camera would produce the sharpest images, and I knew precisely why.
I also knew precisely how to sharpen images by inspection.
The D800, with an AA filter, was clearly the best choice, regardless of marketing hype.
Oct 8, 2018 15:48:16 #
Apaflo wrote:
I bought a D800 with the AA filter.
I did that because I have been working with AA filters, sampling, and measuring the distortion in the telecom industry since the early 1970s. I knew positively which camera would produce the sharpest images, and I knew precisely why.
I also knew precisely how to sharpen images by inspection.
The D800, with an AA filter, was clearly the best choice, regardless of marketing hype.
I did that because I have been working with AA filters, sampling, and measuring the distortion in the telecom industry since the early 1970s. I knew positively which camera would produce the sharpest images, and I knew precisely why.
I also knew precisely how to sharpen images by inspection.
The D800, with an AA filter, was clearly the best choice, regardless of marketing hype.
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Oct 8, 2018 15:49:17 #
aflundi wrote:
Yes, it is.
It can't be an AA filter if it doesn't spread the light. It doesn't spread the light and therefore is not an AA filter. It is nothing more than an optical path lengthener.
It can't be an AA filter if it doesn't spread the light. It doesn't spread the light and therefore is not an AA filter. It is nothing more than an optical path lengthener.
Exactly!
People keep claiming it actually is an Optical Low Pass Filter (OLPF) just one that is disabled. If it is diabled it is NOT a filter at all. It is a stack of the same glass that is oriented such that it is not an OLPF.
Exactly as you you say, it is an optical path extender that allows the same production line to use the same parts to assemble two very different cameras.
Oct 8, 2018 15:53:09 #
aflundi
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Rich1939 wrote:
Since even Leica has removed the AA filter I'll take their actions over your word. The OP was looking for guidance and when what is probably the most respected company in the business goes in a direction it sure seems prudent to follow their lead if you are looking to purchase a high density sensor camera.
If you like aliasing artifacts, a Leica M8 would be a great choice. Very colorful.
Oct 8, 2018 16:05:32 #
Rich1939 wrote:
... Since even Leica has removed the AA filter I'll take their actions over your word. The OP was looking for guidance and when what is probably the most respected company in the business goes in a direction it sure seems prudent to follow their lead ...
Actually Leica plays third fiddle to Canon and Nikon. All three companies know the significance of not following market direction. Nikon has always been the most engineer oriented, and yet they turned on a dime to maintain market share.
Oct 8, 2018 16:13:18 #
I want to thank you all for the interesting and instructive contributions to this thread. I regret I am not an expert but I think I have learned a lot from these discussions.
Seems to me that my choice of using cameras with the low pass optical filter (AA filter) has been a very good decision based on what I know now.
Seems to me that my choice of using cameras with the low pass optical filter (AA filter) has been a very good decision based on what I know now.
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