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Oct 5, 2018 14:47:03   #
Davet Loc: Fort Myers, Florida
 
Bruce, you have been most helpful

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Oct 5, 2018 15:01:01   #
riderxlx Loc: DFW area Texas
 
Thank you so much Dave.
I read most of the threads this morning and it just was so self grandstanding, this is the best I could describe.
People on this site will just nick pick the shit out of any issue regardless of how just simple it answered.
I replied because I too am retired and drawing my teachers retirement pension.
I am very familiar with these back up procedures so I felt like I should chime.
This site can really stupid on certain topics so I am very careful how and who I reply to.
You will be Ok on this. Even if you use a flash drive, just back and save your stuff off the local computer.
Keep in mind that on ANY device, it is not if but when, it fail fail.
I Thank you for your reply to me, that warmed my heart.
You will be Ok, God bless brother.

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Oct 5, 2018 16:12:46   #
SusanFromVermont Loc: Southwest corner of Vermont
 
Davet wrote:
Help please. My old iMac is maxed out of storage space for my pictures. I could spend $3,000 on a new Mac, however I would rather wait. If I purchased a quality external hard drive and exported all my photographs to that and then took all that are on my computer off I think this would help. Any suggestions? If so would some of you recommend a top shelf external hard drove and space size?
Thanks

The best hard drives are not the consumer-grade made by WD, Seacliff, etc. WD makes a professional grade HD [I don't remember it's specific name], but I use HGST Ultrastar hard drives. The warranties on this level of HD is 5 years as opposed to 1 year for the rest. They are more expensive, but it is worth the extra cost. The other thing is that to use as an external drive, the HGST requires a case with a fan [I think the case for mine cost ~$35]. I have them as both internal and external drives!

As far as space is concerned, a lot depends on how much you need. With a lot of images, at least 2TB might be good, but 4TB is better. I was using 2TB and they started filling up, so now I have mostly 4TB. Storage is cheap these days, and there are always sales to take advantage of. [I shop at B&H and Newegg for that type of equipment.]

Backups - it is important to have more than one additional copy of the original image files. As OP have said, it is not a question of IF, but of WHEN a drive will fail. I used to be able to say "it hasn't ever happened to me"! Then a 4TB drive [consumer grade] crashed. Luckily it was within the 1 year warranty, and I got a replacement for free. I use it, but do not count on any one drive to keep my photos safe. There are ways to do automatic backups, which is a lot easier than doing it manually yourself. I use Synchback, which has a free level as well as some paid level with additional services. As for the Cloud, it is a good idea to have it as a backup - I haven't done it yet, though... It would just be for in case every drive in your house is damaged or destroyed! Apparently Cloud file retrieval has its problems, especially if you accidentally delete something and don't realize it for longer than the storage will hold deletes.

Hope this helps.
Susan

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Oct 5, 2018 16:57:59   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
nadelewitz wrote:
Going back to my first post on the thread, and trying to ignore the less-than useful followup by some, allow me to explain a little more. You can easily check this out for yourself. ....

SSD life is rated in numbers of writes to the memory chips in it. It doesn't mechanically fail like a spinning hard drive does, but it starts to fail in reliability. Operations that cause a lot of moving/deleting/adding of data add to the "writes" total.

That's why defragmenting of an SSD should absolutely not be done, because an SSD does not benefit from it the way a spinning drive does and defragging by design involves a tremendous amount of rewriting data to new locations.

It's also why an SSD is best used for the operating system and application installations, which don't get "changed" much in operation, while keeping data that is manipulated a lot on conventional hard drives. Sure, if you are just filing-away photos or anything else on an SSD for storage only without repeated modification, you're not doing much "writing" after the initial process. But adding/deleting/editing/modifying files creates lots of "writes".

And yes, an SSD can fail, suddenly or gradually, just as a hard drive can. So that is not a distinguishing trait between the two. Benefit of an SSD is if you have the system and programs installed on an SSD you benefit from faster booting and operation of the "system (Windows, Mac, Linux)". And you don't need a huge SSD to hold the OS and applications. Hard drive capacity is cheaper than SSD capacity for data STORAGE.

I have multiple Windows and Linux computers with 120 and 250 GB SSDs, which only contain the OS and many programs, and they don't begin to fill the SSDs. All of my many years of accumulated data is on a network-attached-storage (NAS) hard drive, which is backed-up regularly to additional hard drives.
Going back to my first post on the thread, and try... (show quote)


Modern SSDs have a max number of write cycles far in excess of any personal use - it’s just a non-issue with modern drives. Additionally, image files are typically written and read a few times even when editing. Note that many modern laptops use only SSDs for OS, Aps and data. Another advantage, in addition to speed, for an external drive is ruggedness. While they do fail (but not often), they are largely immune to to shock, vibration and moisture. Perhaps not a big deal (unless you knock it off your desk) for a stationary drive, but a very useful attribute if you need portability.

Finally, as to reliability, we do not have as much data on large arrays of SSDs as we do HDs simply because of cost - large data centers are concerned with $/TB and employ redundancy to mitigate HD failures, but non-mechanical drives are inherently more reliable than mechanical devices. How many CPU or memory failures have you experienced compared to HD failures? Not even in the same league. HDs have had a great run, from the 10MB drives of the early 80s to the 8TB drives of today at a fraction of the original price, but they are being rapidly replaced with SSDs, which are the future of storage.

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Oct 5, 2018 18:03:32   #
hassighedgehog Loc: Corona, CA
 
My photos are stored on three external systems: standard 1 TB hard drive, 256 GB SSD, and 256 GB thumb drive. I have had a standard external HD fail on me. When my computers internal HD failed on me the data was recovered from the external one, but the filing system had to be completely redone. With three formats, one is sure to be OK.

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Oct 5, 2018 18:57:01   #
rcarol
 
nadelewitz wrote:
External drive is a good idea, but NOT an SSD solid-state drive. An SSD should only be used as a system drive...operating system and applications. Must be a rotating-platter hard drive. Size-wise, there aren't "small" ones readily available anymore, so 1 TB (Terabyte)-on-up is what you'll see. Also consider strongly backing-up your storage drive regularly to insure against drive-failure loss of all your data. So, buy TWO external drives.
You can even buy external hard drive enclosures and fill them with whatever brand of drive you want. There are only three manufacturers anymore, and one is just as good as another...Seagate (includes Maxtor and Samsung), Western Digital (includes HGST), Toshiba.
External drive is a good idea, but NOT an SSD soli... (show quote)


Why are you eliminating an SSD? Why do you say that they should be used only as a system drive? Because they have no moving parts, they will tolerate far more abuse than a mechanical drive.

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Oct 5, 2018 21:43:16   #
SusanFromVermont Loc: Southwest corner of Vermont
 
hassighedgehog wrote:
My photos are stored on three external systems: standard 1 TB hard drive, 256 GB SSD, and 256 GB thumb drive. I have had a standard external HD fail on me. When my computers internal HD failed on me the data was recovered from the external one, but the filing system had to be completely redone. With three formats, one is sure to be OK.

When backing up your images to the external drives, you could keep the filing system so it would not have to be rebuilt. That is what I do - every day, automatic incremental backups that are exact copies of what is on my internal hard drive. [Using SynchBack]

The small size of your drives may make this difficult, depending on how many photos you have. But storage is not expensive, so it may be worthwhile to have a couple of larger external and/or internal drives.

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Oct 6, 2018 10:12:09   #
11bravo
 
HGST 4 TB NAS drives, coupled with a Newegg HDD enclosure:
https://m.newegg.com/products/N82E16817182247

Fan is fantastic for keeping drive cool, and easy to install drive if you can use a screwdriver (10 screws). I have a number of these, not the cheapest enclosure, but worth it. I only use HGST drives and they are great.

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Oct 6, 2018 12:11:38   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Whatever drive the OP gets, it needs to be formatted correctly for Macs for best performance. “Mac OS Extended, Journaled” is the older standard. “APFS” is the new one. Which to choose depends on the version of the OS. Only computers running 10.14.x Mojave can have conventional (spinning) external drives formatted as APFS.

Find the Disk Utility needed in the Applications/Utilities folder.

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Oct 6, 2018 13:00:01   #
SusanFromVermont Loc: Southwest corner of Vermont
 
11bravo wrote:
HGST 4 TB NAS drives, coupled with a Newegg HDD enclosure:
https://m.newegg.com/products/N82E16817182247

Fan is fantastic for keeping drive cool, and easy to install drive if you can use a screwdriver (10 screws). I have a number of these, not the cheapest enclosure, but worth it. I only use HGST drives and they are great.



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Oct 6, 2018 15:37:35   #
riderxlx Loc: DFW area Texas
 
Buck;
I tried to keep my suggestion simple. He seems to be a little bit unfamiliar with back up drives. So I did not want to make it sound confusing that's why I suggested just going to Best Buy and get basic external USB drive or two. Can't go wrong since he is in a limited space situation already. As I said to him, right now, today, this will free up his local drive while he explores expanded options. Your replies to people always make good sense that's why I replied to you and him I hope, if he reads this.
These drives are all MAC compatible. And affordable too.
Not sure what his file(s) sizes are but but being an older MAC, I am assuming he has the stock drive so I would think wayyyyyyyyy under terabyte range.
I even have some old sata full size external hard drives and they are still running. I have both Western Digital and Seagates too in the newer small sizes and they run great.
He has some simple solutions to his local drive space issue.
I hope we can help him out.
later gater.
bruce in texas.

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Oct 6, 2018 22:35:35   #
sloscheider Loc: Minnesota
 
Davet wrote:
Help please. My old iMac is maxed out of storage space for my pictures. I could spend $3,000 on a new Mac, however I would rather wait. If I purchased a quality external hard drive and exported all my photographs to that and then took all that are on my computer off I think this would help. Any suggestions? If so would some of you recommend a top shelf external hard drove and space size?
Thanks

How old of an iMac? I would think about changing out the internal hard drive for an SSD - as big as you can afford. Do you have USB 3? If not your external drives may need to support the Thunderbolt interface (if your iMac supports it). Also, max out your memory while you've got the thing apart for the hard drive.

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Oct 6, 2018 23:35:21   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
TriX wrote:
Modern SSDs have a max number of write cycles far in excess of any personal use - it’s just a non-issue with modern drives. Additionally, image files are typically written and read a few times even when editing. Note that many modern laptops use only SSDs for OS, Aps and data. Another advantage, in addition to speed, for an external drive is ruggedness. While they do fail (but not often), they are largely immune to to shock, vibration and moisture. Perhaps not a big deal (unless you knock it off your desk) for a stationary drive, but a very useful attribute if you need portability.

Finally, as to reliability, we do not have as much data on large arrays of SSDs as we do HDs simply because of cost - large data centers are concerned with $/TB and employ redundancy to mitigate HD failures, but non-mechanical drives are inherently more reliable than mechanical devices. How many CPU or memory failures have you experienced compared to HD failures? Not even in the same league. HDs have had a great run, from the 10MB drives of the early 80s to the 8TB drives of today at a fraction of the original price, but they are being rapidly replaced with SSDs, which are the future of storage.
Modern SSDs have a max number of write cycles far ... (show quote)


TriX, have you seen anything authoritative just recently that rebutts what Wikipedia has to say about using SSDs for long term storage as I posted on page 2 of this thread and that everyone ignored. Makes me wonder how many people have me on "Ignore." Here's my previous post from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive#SSD_reliability_and_failure_modes, third paragraph from the top:

About using SSDs for long-term storage, from Wikipedia:

"As of 2017, most SSDs use 3D TLC NAND-based flash memory, which is a type of non-volatile memory that retains data when power is lost. For applications requiring fast access but not necessarily data persistence after power loss, SSDs may be constructed from random-access memory (RAM). Such devices may employ batteries as integrated power sources to retain data for a certain amount of time after external power is lost.[4]

However, all SSDs still store data in electrical charges, which slowly leak over time if left without power. This causes worn out drives (that have exceeded their endurance rating) to start losing data typically after one (if stored at 30 °C) to two (at 25 °C) years in storage; for new drives it takes longer. [7] Therefore, SSDs are not suited for archival purposes."

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Oct 7, 2018 07:53:16   #
PeterBergh
 
gessman wrote:
... [7] Therefore, SSDs are not suited for archival purposes."


While I have no doubt that the Wikipedia statement you quoted is correct, using a disk -- whether SSD or HDD -- for an archive or as a backup drive requires different properties. An archive needs to work after a long time in storage. A backup drive is being written to frequently (if the user is zealous about backups) and, thus, its properties after long-time storage are irrelevant.

I would expect a HDD to be better for archival storage (disregarding issues like lubricants "jelling" over time) and a SSD to be better for reasonably frequent backup.

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Oct 7, 2018 10:23:09   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
gessman wrote:
TriX, have you seen anything authoritative just recently that rebutts what Wikipedia has to say about using SSDs for long term storage as I posted on page 2 of this thread and that everyone ignored. Makes me wonder how many people have me on "Ignore." Here's my previous post from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive#SSD_reliability_and_failure_modes, third paragraph from the top:

About using SSDs for long-term storage, from Wikipedia:

"As of 2017, most SSDs use 3D TLC NAND-based flash memory, which is a type of non-volatile memory that retains data when power is lost. For applications requiring fast access but not necessarily data persistence after power loss, SSDs may be constructed from random-access memory (RAM). Such devices may employ batteries as integrated power sources to retain data for a certain amount of time after external power is lost.[4]

However, all SSDs still store data in electrical charges, which slowly leak over time if left without power. This causes worn out drives (that have exceeded their endurance rating) to start losing data typically after one (if stored at 30 °C) to two (at 25 °C) years in storage; for new drives it takes longer. [7] Therefore, SSDs are not suited for archival purposes."
TriX, have you seen anything authoritative just re... (show quote)


I absolutely agree that SSDs are inappropriate for archival storage where the drives are not powered for long periods of time (years) and have never suggested otherwise. For archival storage, I recommend MDisks and cloud storage by a major provider, which is what I employ.

Cheers

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