Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Will f/22 disappear like f/64 did?
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
Aug 20, 2018 07:47:26   #
jackpinoh Loc: Kettering, OH 45419
 
Bipod wrote:
Maxwell Smart had a telephone in his shoe. Many people today have a camera in their (cellular) telephone. :-)

Miniaturization is all the rage--and not just in cellphone cameras. Even "camera cameras" are getting smaller.
For example, small size seems to be one of the big selling points of mirrorless cameras over DSLRs.

Pity the poor fool who is still using a large format view camera! He will never know the pleasure of snapping
a "selfie" in a bar or restaurant. :-)

But consider: f/64 was reasonably sharp on a large format (film) camera. (Remember the "f/64 Group"?)
That was some serious depth-of-focus! But now f/22 has disappeared from cellphone cameras---because
on thee small cameras, it's too fuzzy.

Alas, not everything can be minauturized without loss of quality. For example: a minature loudspeaker will
not do a very good job of reproducing bass (low frequency) tones. Very clever technical tricks can be used,
but they all take a toll on quality. For the best bass reproduction, you need big speakers.

That's because sound waves have a certain size. Concert A (440.00 Hz) has a wavelenth of 2.5 feet. But low A
on the 88-key grand piano (55.00 Hz.) has a wavelength of 20.5 feet. It's hard to get a big wave out of mall
box!

Similarly, light has a wavelength. Even though light is a transverse wave and the wavelength of visible light
is measured in nanometers (400 to 700 nanometers, roughly), it still has a fixed size. You can minaturize a
camera, but you can't minaturized a light wave unless you want to take photos by ultraviolet light or X-rays.

Why should photographers care? Because f/22 on a "full frame" (we used to call that "miniature format")
camera is a bigger hole (aperature) than f/22 on a dinky APS-C sensor.

As most here will know, f-number is defined as the ratio of lens focal length to the diamter of the aperture.
Small format (or sensor) cameras must use shorter focal lengths for each type of lens: wide, standard or
telephoto. Therefore, the aperture is smaller for a given f-stop.

And when you try to push light though a too small hole, something awful happens: it splits (defracts) into its
composite wavelenths! Each is defracted at a differnt angle. So a dot of light becomes a blob of light
on the sensor or film, which gives you a fuzzy image.

There is absolutely nothing one can do about defraction, except to use a bigger aperature. (It's a fact
of quantum physics: built into the universe.)

This is why large and medium-format pinhole cameras are much shaper than 35-mm pinhole cameras.
It's easy to make a 35-mm pinhole camera: drill a hole in the center of a body cap, and mount the correct
size pinhole over it. But the resulting image will be fuzzy (but still kinda nice): the usual pinhole
fuzziness plus diffraction.

Few of us want to produce fuzzy images. So if minaturizatoin continues to conquer the camera market,
will depth-of-focus soon be a thing of the past?

I hope not. I don't want to have to use a camera whose smallest aperature is f/16 or f/11. But that's
"progress": in the electronic gizmo world, "smaller and cheaper" has totally replaced "bigger and better".
Maxwell Smart had a telephone in his shoe. Many p... (show quote)

Diffraction is a function of both aperture and sensor (pixel) size. The smaller the sensor, the sooner diffraction effects become objectionable. Large format cameras could use f/64 while full frame cameras may produce objectionable diffraction at f/16 and APS-C cameras may produce objectionable diffraction at f/11. But with smaller sensors, you get better depth of field at wider apertures and therefore don't need the smaller apertures of cameras with larger sensors. So it's all good.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 07:59:37   #
Pablo8 Loc: Nottingham UK.
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
f64 didn't disappear. It's still there on lenses for 8x10 view cameras.


My Schneider Symmar-S 240mm f/5.6 only stops down to f/45. But I don't feel cheated.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 08:26:07   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
Pablo8 wrote:
My Schneider Symmar-S 240mm f/5.6 only stops down to f/45. But I don't feel cheated.


Maybe I should have said that some large format lenses still go to f64.

Reply
 
 
Aug 20, 2018 08:37:58   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
I bet many photographers in this forum hardly use f22. When I was using film f16 was my choice opening for depth of field.
It is f16 which continues to be my favorite aperture for depth of field with digital.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 10:39:05   #
fetzler Loc: North West PA
 
The depth of field in an image largely depends on magnification at the sensor or film. For an 8 x 10 camera, a head shot is a 1:1 macro. (just imagine a 16 x 20 camera.) All 1:1 macros then would have the same depth of field at the same aperture. If the sensor is smaller and the image has the same content as one made on on a larger sensor, the image made with the smaller sensor will have the greater depth of field as the image made on the smaller sensor has less magnification. (Assuming same aperture). Large f numbers (e.g. f 64 are necessary for large format cameras to insure adequate depth of field. Smaller f numbers ( e.g f 2.8)can be used with small sensors to achieve the same depth of field. With small sensors large f numbers are not necessary to achieve adequate depth of field. With short focal lengths the physical size of the aperture will be small and diffraction will be a problem.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 11:07:32   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
Capn_Dave wrote:
Well not to start a war or anything but aperture most assuredly does effect DOF ( Depth of Field) There are many articles
on this subject, so no need for me to recite what is already known, We have this amazing tool called Google.

You need to read the comments in order to see that the comment was referring to "depth of focus" and then the OP replied that he meant "depth of field" rather than "depth of focus."
Although they are two different terms, they often are used interchangeably, kind of like "pixels per inch" and "dots per inch" when printing pictures.

More on the two "depth of" terms:
https://www.edmundoptics.com/resources/application-notes/imaging/depth-of-field-and-depth-of-focus/

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 12:12:24   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
Bipod wrote:
Maxwell Smart had a telephone in his shoe. Many people today have a camera in their (cellular) telephone. :-)

Miniaturization is all the rage--and not just in cellphone cameras. Even "camera cameras" are getting smaller.
For example, small size seems to be one of the big selling points of mirrorless cameras over DSLRs.

Pity the poor fool who is still using a large format view camera! He will never know the pleasure of snapping
a "selfie" in a bar or restaurant. :-)

But consider: f/64 was reasonably sharp on a large format (film) camera. (Remember the "f/64 Group"?)
That was some serious depth-of-focus! But now f/22 has disappeared from cellphone cameras---because
on thee small cameras, it's too fuzzy.

Alas, not everything can be minauturized without loss of quality. For example: a minature loudspeaker will
not do a very good job of reproducing bass (low frequency) tones. Very clever technical tricks can be used,
but they all take a toll on quality. For the best bass reproduction, you need big speakers.

That's because sound waves have a certain size. Concert A (440.00 Hz) has a wavelenth of 2.5 feet. But low A
on the 88-key grand piano (55.00 Hz.) has a wavelength of 20.5 feet. It's hard to get a big wave out of mall
box!

Similarly, light has a wavelength. Even though light is a transverse wave and the wavelength of visible light
is measured in nanometers (400 to 700 nanometers, roughly), it still has a fixed size. You can minaturize a
camera, but you can't minaturized a light wave unless you want to take photos by ultraviolet light or X-rays.

Why should photographers care? Because f/22 on a "full frame" (we used to call that "miniature format")
camera is a bigger hole (aperature) than f/22 on a dinky APS-C sensor.

As most here will know, f-number is defined as the ratio of lens focal length to the diamter of the aperture.
Small format (or sensor) cameras must use shorter focal lengths for each type of lens: wide, standard or
telephoto. Therefore, the aperture is smaller for a given f-stop.

And when you try to push light though a too small hole, something awful happens: it splits (defracts) into its
composite wavelenths! Each is defracted at a differnt angle. So a dot of light becomes a blob of light
on the sensor or film, which gives you a fuzzy image.

There is absolutely nothing one can do about defraction, except to use a bigger aperature. (It's a fact
of quantum physics: built into the universe.)

This is why large and medium-format pinhole cameras are much shaper than 35-mm pinhole cameras.
It's easy to make a 35-mm pinhole camera: drill a hole in the center of a body cap, and mount the correct
size pinhole over it. But the resulting image will be fuzzy (but still kinda nice): the usual pinhole
fuzziness plus diffraction.

Few of us want to produce fuzzy images. So if minaturizatoin continues to conquer the camera market,
will depth-of-focus soon be a thing of the past?

I hope not. I don't want to have to use a camera whose smallest aperature is f/16 or f/11. But that's
"progress": in the electronic gizmo world, "smaller and cheaper" has totally replaced "bigger and better".
Maxwell Smart had a telephone in his shoe. Many p... (show quote)


There are still FF cameras and medium format cameras so f22 will not disappear.

Reply
 
 
Aug 20, 2018 12:47:00   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
Bipod wrote:
I don't want to have to use a camera whose smallest aperature is f/16 or f/11. But that's "progress".


I hate to point out that in smaller sensor cameras like P&S, you don't even have f/16 or even f/11. My SX50 HS only goes down to f/8. That removes some options,.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 15:23:39   #
ballsafire Loc: Lafayette, Louisiana
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
If f/22 disappeared I wouldn't miss it - I usually avoid f/22 - my max is f/11 or /16 - most lenses perform best in the midrange, and some perform well wide open.



Reply
Aug 20, 2018 15:39:00   #
RWR Loc: La Mesa, CA
 
camerapapi wrote:
I bet many photographers in this forum hardly use f22. When I was using film f16 was my choice opening for depth of field.
It is f16 which continues to be my favorite aperture for depth of field with digital.

With my Micro-Nikkors, I use f/32 much more than f/22.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 16:28:15   #
photogeneralist Loc: Lopez Island Washington State
 
f stop is focal length of a lens divided by the aperture. Thus if using a 100 mm lens for ease of computation, a f-stop of 2 yields an aperture of 50 mm diameter (100/2) while a f-stop of 22 yields an aperture diameter of 100/22 or 4.55 mm. Since diffraction is inversly related to opening (aperture size) it stands to reason that the small 4.5 mm opening would cause more diffraction fuzziness than would the 50 mm opening.
This must be balanced against the apparent increase in depth of field (the distance from where the image appears to be adequately sharp (Near) to where he image appears to be just barely adequately sharp. A small aperture can cause the apparent DOF to be greater than does a large aperture . thus it's a trade off between DOF and lack of diffraction as the aperture gets smaller. That's why a 4 x 5 view camera with a long focal length (say 500 mm) can use f/45 without fear of diffraction since it's aperture is still 10 mm

Reply
 
 
Aug 20, 2018 17:26:51   #
Capn_Dave
 
russelray wrote:
You need to read the comments in order to see that the comment was referring to "depth of focus" and then the OP replied that he meant "depth of field" rather than "depth of focus."
Although they are two different terms, they often are used interchangeably, kind of like "pixels per inch" and "dots per inch" when printing pictures.

More on the two "depth of" terms:
https://www.edmundoptics.com/resources/application-notes/imaging/depth-of-field-and-depth-of-focus/
You need to read the comments in order to see that... (show quote)


The person I referred to and I quoted him did correct himself and said Depth of Field. Depth of focus is the focal distance of the light to the film or sensor.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 19:56:39   #
Pochon53
 
I do film and I have a few lenses with f32, an f-stop which I never use; mostly I use f16,f11, and f8, for example with sunny f16 rule if I run into varying amounts of shade.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 20:01:54   #
David Lyon
 
Personally, I don’t do selfies with my iPhone, and even happier that I can’t snap a selfie in the bar... not take photos of my dinner.

Good point about miniaturation and technology changes. I know on my MF, f/32 is not at sharp as f/22, but does offer the extra step I need as I am limited in how I much I can work with the ISO.

Reply
Aug 20, 2018 20:20:13   #
Bipod
 
Gene51 wrote:
Smaller sensors use shorter lenses for similar angles of view, so while a M4/3 sensor is tiny, some interesting things happen when you compare the two. A 10mm lens on a M4/3 has an angle of view similar to a 20 mm on a full frame camera.

At the same subject to sensor plane distances, the M4/3 camera with a 10mm lens will have less depth of field than a 10mm lens on a full frame camera - when compared at the same apertures.

However, if you increase the distance to take in the same field of view as the 20mm lens the effect of moving back will increase depth of field, but the change in distance changes the perspective.

If the goal is to have great depth of field, the smaller cameras, even with larger minimum apertures, the smaller sensors will deliver that.
Smaller sensors use shorter lenses for similar ang... (show quote)

That's a very interesting and valid point. But the loss of resolution inherent in small sensors limits what one can do with the image.

Another benefits of small sensors: more light gathering power for a given diameter objective

So the technical solution would be a sensor that is much denser: say an order of magnitude more pixels per unit area. That does not seem to be
on the horizon. And cameras have been getting smaller faster than sensors have been getting denser.

Worse, when sensor pixels get too close togther, the start suffering from diffraction, just like a small aperture does. This is due to the wavelength
of light, so it's not affected by focal length, sensor size or anything else--except maybe a UV filter. But when blue light starts causing diffraction,
that's the physical limit of how dense a sensor can be.

So all in all, the disadvantages of small sensors outweigh the benefits and will continue to do so, IMHO.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.