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Photographer's rights.
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Aug 2, 2018 11:22:28   #
epd1947
 
[quote=billnourse]
camerapapi wrote:

I know that filming police officers with a video camera is strictly prohibited.


According to this it is not illegal to video police officers in public places.


https://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/is-video-taping-police-against-the-law-in-florida-experts-say-no-but-its/2284638


The US Supreme Court ruled on this some years back - basically what they ruled was that members of the public could photograph or video police officers while they are carrying out their duties - as long as the photographer is not interfering with the police activity.

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Aug 2, 2018 11:25:46   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Doubt it.

What you are failing to see is that a person can be arrested, and possibly convicted, for "taking photographs of a police officer". You have an apparent shallow view of the situation. I specifically wrote that one can be arrested "for taking photographs", which is quite possible. What may be more difficult is convicting a person for taking photographs. Examples of such can be found easily.

What may not be so easy to fight in court is obstruction, interference, resusing to obey a lawful request, etc.
--Bob
Apaflo wrote:
You lose.

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Aug 2, 2018 11:26:01   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
camerapapi wrote:
As of lately, especially in public places, I find more and more people complaining that their picture is being made without consulting them. A few days ago I was shooting at a local park and all of a sudden a woman began to shout at me saying that I had photographed her child without her permission. My explanations about shooting in a public place plus my explanations that I was not shooting persons or children (shooting children without parent's consent is a felony in Dade County) did not convince her agitated attitude. She threatened me with a call to the police. I showed her the picture in question, taken with a wide angle and her child was not visible but I deleted the shot in front of her. That did not make her any happier but she did not call the police.

I like to go to local parks and photograph the scenery, not the persons there but this incident has been kind of traumatic to me since I treated the young lady with respect but she did not act the same way with me. Had she call the police it would have been hard for me to explain my rights and I know it is illegal to photograph children without parent's consent. I think I acted as a decent human being but I do not want this to happen to me again.

So, which are my rights?
As of lately, especially in public places, I find ... (show quote)


You have the right to photograph where you want in a public place. IF you start to concentrate your photography on young children then the parents of those children do have a right to be concerned. But you were not doing that. If I had been in that situation I would not even have allowed the shouting woman to see the photographs. As others have posted I would tell her to call the police. Even if her kid was in one of your photos, as you describe, a non essential bystander, you would still have no worries, I think even in Dade County. My belief, and no I am not an attorney, is if you did not focus expressly on the child you have no worries. IF you had several close up photos of the child, then we are into another category. Most courts try to stick with visible intent to violate the law. If you had one photo of her kid off in the background there would be no intent. I would not have deleted the picture.

Dennis

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Aug 2, 2018 11:26:44   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
rmalarz wrote:
William, when confronted with situations like this, I simply explain that there is no expectation of privacy in a public area. Secondly, if someone wants to call the police, let 'em. I'll continue to go about my photographing until they get there.

Now, there was one individual who insisted that they were going to have me arrested. I told them to go ahead and call the police. However, think about this before you start insisting that someone is arrested. If the officer sees that I'm not doing anything illegal, guess who gets taken to jail. After a brief moment of thought, the person stomped away and I continued to take the photographs I wanted.
--Bob
William, when confronted with situations like this... (show quote)


Totally right in my opinion Bob.

Dennis

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Aug 2, 2018 11:29:28   #
MarkSki
 
A school’s policy—or any organization’s policy—applies to students and employees, not to you. While the school policy may have informed the principal that photography was not to be allowed, and directs her to take some action to try and stop you from taking them, these policies cannot apply directly to you. The policy itself cannot prohibit you from taking pictures, although the policy can direct her to have you removed from the property, etc. for continuing to do so. Laws, regulation, and ordinances apply to you, not some organization’s policies. Policies dictate employees actions, not yours.

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Aug 2, 2018 11:38:14   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
Blaster34 wrote:
Federal courts.....you do have the right to video police officers on duty in public locations

Correct!

The US Supreme Court has not ruled on this yet, but 6 different Federal Appeals Courts, covering 60% of the population of the USA, have. All upholding that as a First Amendment right.

In this discussion about Florida it is significant that the 11th Court of Appeals has long since, in May of 2000, ruled that it is a protected right under the First Amendment.

The Supreme Court will soon rule though because the 8th Court of Appeals has ruled different than the other courts. If you are under jurisdiction of the 8th Federal Court of Appeals be aware.

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Aug 2, 2018 11:49:25   #
josquin1 Loc: Massachusetts
 
What if it's a woman taking the photograph? Would there be the same reaction?

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Aug 2, 2018 11:50:07   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
Gene51 wrote:
You have no rights. Get used to it. You're lucky that she didn't pull out a handgun and shoot you - Florida and their "stand your ground" B.S. makes that entirely possible.

The best approach is to be humble, apologize profusely, and if you are successful at de-escalating the situation, provide her with your card, and offer her a free print, or do as you did - delete the image in front of her, apologizing all the way.

Confrontation and trying to explain why you are right (and presumably she is wrong) is NOT a good approach, and will only serve to further agitate the mom. There are numerous reasons why someone would not want to be photographed, or have their family members photographed - witness protection and orders of protection in custody battles. You will never win, and you will risk escalating to the point of creating a scene and possibly getting arrested. It's just not worth it.

A better approach, if the situation lends itself to it, would be to inform parents watching their kids that you are working on a project that involves kids at play, offer then your business card, and would they object to having their children (and themselves) photographed. have model releases ready just in case. If they object, just move on. In this case it IS better to ask permission than to beg forgiveness.

While it is perfectly legal to take these pictures, and the parent has no legal footing with which to object, do you really want to defend your right to take these pics in a court of law? That can get expensive really fast. Common sense needs to prevail. However, if you are in Georgia, in 2010 it became illegal to anyone other than a parent to photograph children. Similar legislation was attempted in New Jersey in 2011, but failed to pass.

Remember, you have no rights. Repeat, you have no rights. Of course you have rights, but in such a contest, you will lose the first battle. And someone being photographed has every right to ask you to not photograph them or their family members. The law may be on your side, but common sense dictates that confrontation and escalation is not a good option.
You have no rights. Get used to it. You're lucky t... (show quote)


Gene I normally take to heart most of what you say regarding photography and regard you and your opinions highly. But with your first paragraph of this thread I totally disagree. First off, Florida’s (or any state’s Stand your Ground) law has nothing whatsoever to do with this situation. At no time would either person be entitled to shoot the other person. There is a disagreement with one person claiming she will call the police. Yes, she certainly has that right just as the photographer has the right to take pictures. Your claims of it falling somewhere in a Stand your Ground law have no basis at all.

Secondly, we all have rights. Yes they are challenged at times but only by always sticking up for our rights do we get to keep those rights. Believe me they are worth fighting for.

The OP was not taking photos of children. He had no reason for handing out a business card. You, as (I assume a professional photographer) might have a reason to do that. But consider a child molester going to a park filled with kids, handing out business cards with fake information and parents then offering up their kids to be photographed. Business cards can be printed for around $10.00 per thousand, a cheap price for a pervert.

Dennis

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Aug 2, 2018 11:51:42   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
rmalarz wrote:
Doubt it.

What you are failing to see is that a person can be arrested, and possibly convicted, for "taking photographs of a police officer". You have an apparent shallow view of the situation. I specifically wrote that one can be arrested "for taking photographs", which is quite possible. What may be more difficult is convicting a person for taking photographs. Examples of such can be found easily.

What may not be so easy to fight in court is obstruction, interference, resusing to obey a lawful request, etc.
--Bob
Doubt it. br br What you are failing to see is t... (show quote)

You have the shallow view! As I have repeatedly said we cannot interfere with a police officer. But taking pictures itself is NOT interfering.

If an officer says you are intefering and must back off then that is exactly what you must do: back off. The officer cannot legally tell you to stop photographing and cannot seize your camera except as evidence.

You ABSOLUTELY cannot be ordered to delete any photographs. And absent a warrant an officer cannot demand to view your images.

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Aug 2, 2018 12:03:00   #
mikee
 
I was recently in France, and while visiting a cathedral there was an apparent school group present. The kids looked about 6 years old, and were quite cute walking hand-in-hand. We were in a public square. There were several people taking photos, and one of the chaperones of the kids said in English "photographing children is forbidden". Now, I'm not sure if "fobidden" and "illegal" are the same, but I didn't take any photos. When in Rome...

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Aug 2, 2018 12:04:20   #
therwol Loc: USA
 
Lukabulla wrote:

Shopping Centrers / Malls are generally private property even though the public has access .


I visited Dublin in 2001 and ignorantly walked through a shopping mall shooting video. Security was on me in about 30 seconds. My wife said they probably thought I was scouting the mall for a place to plant a bomb.

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Aug 2, 2018 12:08:30   #
dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho
 
jeep_daddy wrote:
I wish a lawyer would chime in here. I have a friend that was a deputy sheriff and he was taking pictures at the beach. Even though he is very attracted to the young beautiful girls that run around in skimpy swimsuits, he doesn't usually take pictures of them. But one time while he was taking pictures he pointed his camera in the general direction of some 15 or 16 year old girls and they started yelling to their guardian, (I assume parent) that "that man just took our picture". My friend denied it and the people fetched a cop on duty and brought him over to investigate. My friend was very embarrassed by the yelling and screaming parent that accused him publicly of being a pervert for taking pictures of her kids that were wearing skimpy swim gear. The bottom line is that the cop looked at the pictures my friend took and didn't find any of girls in swim gear. But we still don't really know what might have happened if there were some on his camera. They aren't nude, there is no expectation of privacy on a public beach, my friend is a cop and not a convicted child molestor etc., so what gives? Here in California, police agencies don't seem to care about courtesy to other agencies. So if a cop from one jurisdiction is accused of something in another jurisdiction, they are treated like anyone else. Not like the old days where they got a pass.
I wish a lawyer would chime in here. I have a fri... (show quote)


Amazing you would ask for a lawyer to chime in. Consider in trial cases that 50% of attorney’s are on the losing side. Many attorneys to whom I have asked a simple question (can I legally carry a firearm on my ranch in California) really had no clue as to the answer. They hemmed and hawed, back and forth, claiming, well if this happens you can but if this happens you may not be able to do legally. The obvious answer is, of course I can. It is my property and I can certainly carry a firearm for whatever my reasons might happen to be. But nobody would commit to an answer. Attorneys generally specialize in trial law, divorce law, corporate law and so on.

Your other comment as to police getting special treatment seems to be a thing of the past. I never saw it happen during my employ as a deputy sheriff in Southern CA in the 70’s. Consider too that LEO’s have some leeway when enforcing the law. Do you want total obedience to the law in every officer. If so then consider you are driving 46mph in a 45 mph zone. Congratulations, You just received a speeding ticket. The traffic light turned red one second before you went through. You might even think you were perfectly legal. But you weren’t. These citations are racking up quickly aren’t they. My point is that LEO’s have an amount of discretion in the citations they issue.

Dennis

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Aug 2, 2018 12:10:53   #
ecurb1105
 
markie1425 wrote:
What is legal and what is practical may differ.

Two weeks ago I was physically attacked by about a dozen Nigerian women within a block of my home in Philadelphia.

I had taken a picture of the costumed group from what I thought was a respectable distance. One of them saw me and quickly the entire group set upon me, dragging me down and trying to pull my camera off of my neck. They wanted me to delete the photograph which I couldn't do against their assault. I wanted to protect my camera which they would have broken if they had grabbed it. Eventually, I was able to stand and delete the photograph, after which they insisted that I spool through the rest of my pictures to assure themselves that I had no other images of them.

My only possible defenses would have been to start punching them (but they were overpowering me) or defending myself with my flick knife (which would have ended badly).

First time I was attacked for shooting a picture.

They missed this one which I accidentally took as they were swarming over me.
What is legal and what is practical may differ. br... (show quote)


What did the police do when you reported the assault and battery to your person?

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Aug 2, 2018 12:17:38   #
tomad Loc: North Carolina
 
Stephan G wrote:
"Papers. Please!"


Uh, I only have a pipe man...

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Aug 2, 2018 12:19:23   #
Quinn 4
 
What I do when I taking a picture of something and kids show up. I just stop and put the camera away, I not going get in a fight over some picture of kid and could end up with me in jail with a destroy camera. The field is their, have another day to get my picture.

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