Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

Where have I heard "More Guns Less Crime"?
Oh yes, John Lotts book.
Guess the libs attacking him are complete liars and idiots and their fools who believe them.

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

Yes they are, indeed. It is amazing to me when any Liberal, talking about any subject, calls Conservatives liars especially in light of the multitude of liars constantly exposed in even the Liberal media. Everyone on the planet knows that entire Obama administration lied several times, Bill and Hillary were not only liars but reportedly gave instructional classes. Then there is the recent Comey, McCabe, Clapper, Brennan, Strzok and Page, DWS, Donna Brazille and so on. Hell, it would be much shorter to list a Liberal who was truthful IF one could be found.

Dennis

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

therwol Loc: USA

After reading 4 pages of replies, all I can think of is "here we go again." This issue will be debated until the end of time. All I'm going to say is this. I spent a LOT of time at gun ranges in my youth. I've seen many cases of unsafe conduct at ranges by either novices or idiots. If people are going to pack guns, and I'm not saying they shouldn't, then I think that they should know how to handle them, otherwise they become a potential menace. I believe that the best way to handle the potential for a mass shooting is to hire professionals for protection, not people who will turn around, point a loaded gun at you with their finger on the trigger while they try to clear a jam. It happened to me.

JCam Loc: MD Eastern Shore

I agree, but the OP was not talking about a typical situation, ie. in a church, but in what could be a very congested area of innocents, perhaps 40 at an early AM service or maybe a hundred later in the day, and the shooter as professed is the 92 year old woman which is not to say younger adults, licensed or not, are all WELL trained and practice..

I still maintain that the situation could lead less than desirable injuries or deaths.

Paladin48 Loc: Orlando

I'd bet he wouldn't say anything as guns (a.k.a. "Hand Cannons") wouldn't be invented for another 1,600-ish years.

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

Surely you realize that it is human beings that inhabit the world. We humans make mistakes, we have moments where we are not paying attention. Unfortunately we are not perfect. Just look at traffic accidents that happen because a driver backed out after looking to see if someone was behind his vehicle, while another motorist raced ahead thinking he could get through before the car backed out.

Even professionals have, Oh Shit, moments. But we have professionals already. We call them police officers. But unfortunately they, too, make mistakes in judgement as we all do.

Just this morning I saw on Fox News, seven armed illegal aliens attempted to rob a jewelry store. The man who saved the day was an armed citizen who saw what was going on and took action.

As a police firearms instructor I have had guns pointed at me even after numerous loud verbal warnings of, Watch your muzzles, finger off the trigger. It happens. The training is ongoing every quarter and still it happens.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

Of course it could lead to injuries or death. Recently a trained police officer in a gun battle, shot and killed another officer. Surely you can admit the projected failure of the 92 year old woman with a 44 Magnum was stated simply to put forward the worst case scenario. Let’s instead offer a 28 year old young man, or woman, who is well trained in the use of firearms because of training in the USMC. They attend church too. These, what if’s, can be told anyway you like. They can be spun to make whatever scenario look good or bad. But in the real world there are many armed citizens who definitely have saved lives.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

I don’t recall the verse but I do know Jesus pointed out that swords had their place.

Dennis

JCam Loc: MD Eastern Shore

This time I agree somewhat, but if you expand the scenario to perhaps some six 28 year old people all shooting in one direction and probably close over the heads of those who haven't "hit the deck" yet, it could still be that circular firing squad, And, yes. the police do make mistakes, today a town in the west is holding a funeral for an officer who was run down and killed at an accident scene by another officer who the reports said is now being held for second degree murder. Neither incident should have happened, especially without more information.

Low Budget Dave

As I pointed out eight times, the people attacking Lott are the organizations where he tried to publish his paper. His "study" was very publicly disproven, and his book was debunked. Not just by me, but by everyone who tried to re-create his fake statistics. He lost his job over it.

As far as liberals lying vs. conservatives, you are on shaky ground there also. You are defending a set of political beliefs led by the most dishonest politician in history. You named a few people who have been caught telling a few whoppers, but you left out Trump, who has been called out by fact-checking organizations more than all of the others put together, times five.

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

You are strutting around as if you have dominated an argument, because you are quoting proven liars, and comparing them to people of proven honesty.

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

How many would die if no one was armed vs an accidental stray shot?
So libs want all to be disarmed and die without a chance of defence.
Ps the 92 year old grandma will most likely not have a 44 mag. She will have a 380 Sig with a laser and she goes to the range 2 times a week.

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

Pay attention. I am not strutting at all. I take none of this shit seriously. Nothing I say will likely cause any on the Leftbto change their mind. Minds are made up and ideas frozen in your brain. I am simply that I do not believe your statistics. You don’t believe mine. Who honestly cares? Did you really think you would change my mind? Not hardly. I look at FBI crime statistics as well as state statistics. To my way of thinking states that allow the carrying of firearms by citizens have lower crime rates. You don’t believe that. OK. I’m good.

Dennis

JCam Loc: MD Eastern Shore

You have vastly changed the conditions of your first post, and even you must agree that the changes make a lot of difference. I have read the state statistics about lives saved by "packers", they are in mostly one-on-one in open spaces with plenty of room, not in a possibly crowded church which is probably the worst possible place for a shooter to be.

"Nuf said" on my part!

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

First off, who are you talking to? We are now on page 4 of what could be a 10+ page thread. If you click on Quote Reply before answering it will let us all know who you are referring to. Believe me, it helps a lot.

Just today I saw where seven armed illegal aliens held up a jewelry store. In the end they were stopped by an armed civilian. As a former LEO I can tell you that most of the time, we do not get to choose our confrontations. Only by choosing to participate or not can we make that choice. In some cases it is definitely best for an armed citizen to make note of descriptions to give to the police rather than going in with a firearm by himself. But we are not always given that choice. Yes a shooter in a church could be horiffic. But where are you compared to the shooter’s location. If it is going to be a lethal husband wife situation where the husband is about to kill his wife and you are six rows behind, a well placed single shot could save the woman’s life. If it is three armed Muslims about to kill everyone there is nothing to lose. You shooting just one could drive off the other two. Who knows? Each scenario is going to be different. A wise person with a firearm surveys the options, time permitting, and makes a move or not, depending on what is there.

Whenever someone says, Nuff said, it tells me they have spoken and everyone else and their opinions are no longer welcome, you have said the last acceptable word on the subject. Bullshit.

Dennis