Don't understand where you get the idea that God is as you say testing anybody. God does not have to test any man,our lives, good and bad, whatever we make of them is pre-ordianed. He already knows us beginning, the day of birth, to the end, when we draw our last breath.

I think you improperly quoted me on that. It was Chewy who made the claim of god testing humans like lab rats.

What in the world are you talking about? He knows but you certainly don't

Sorry Chewy, don't understand your question.

Thats ok because I don't understand your point either.

Why so much hate! Why do all none beleavers hate us belevers so much? We love them Our Bible teaches us to Love the sinner but hate the sin. We are not trying to stop you from beliveing or not believing what you want. Youll never win the argument or change anyones mind by your raveing and ranting. The same with politics. A libreal will always be a libreal and a Conservative will always be a concervative. Both sides are just wasting their time when they could be out taken photographs. I think they should outlaw those two subjects from chit chat. Just my thoughs. Dose anyone feel the same way???

Why so much hate! Why do all none beleavers hate us belevers so much? We love them Our Bible teaches us to Love the sinner but hate the sin. We are not trying to stop you from beliveing or not believing what you want. Youll never win the argument or change anyones mind by your raveing and ranting. The same with politics. A libreal will always be a libreal and a Conservative will always be a concervative. Both sides are just wasting their time when they could be out taken photographs. I think they should outlaw those two subjects from chit chat. Just my thoughs. Dose anyone feel the same way???

It would be difficult to find a better example of faith as the pretending to know something one does not know. The writers of the books that later became known as the New Testament knew the end of the world was near, but they were pretending to know something they didn't know. Had they performed the same calculation Bishop Usher did, they would have said god was testing man fo 4000 years.

Ever since and in every generation I would not be surprised to find someone pretending to know something they don't know and predicting the imminent end of the world. Such predictions are so common they have become an instantly recognized joke in cartoons with the ragged, bearded guy in a robe waving the sign saying "THE END IS NEAR.". And I've seen bumper sticker claiming "I've survived 5 apocalypses!". These were common last year after Harold Camping pretended to know the end of the world was coming TWICE in one year.

You are in good - if wrong - company.

Yes, that's right... you don't have to question something you believe to be true. Some people also believe the WWE is real wrestling and not choreographed violent dance routines then buy every pay-per-view they put out, but that doesn't make it real wrestling.

There are those of us who do question things because we refuse to take them at face value just because somebody (mainstream religions in this case) tells us it is true. The Bible makes it obvious, to those who can discern truth and untruth, that it's conflicted, opinionated by man, mistranslated, changed by men in power through the centuries, and has far too many things incorrect that are archaeologically-proven to be wrong.

If you truly have the power of the Holy Spirit over you, you are given discernment of what's right and wrong. You have discernment of what's good or evil. You have discernment of what is true or not true. The only reason you wouldn't is if you are intentionally wearing blinders to shield yourself from what man-made religion tells you is evil heresy. Man-made religion tells you to not question the Bible because they don't want you to learn that what they teach is not what you need to truly find God.

Man-made Christianity has a phrase used thousands of times per day in every church that goes something like this, "We cannot question the _________ (insert acts of, words of, desires of) of God because it isn't meant for us to understand these things until we are in heaven." The ultimate cop-out that translates into: "As a trained church leader in our denomination, I don't have a clue why this happened because it doesn't match what I was taught, so we'll make it an unsolvable mystery."

Fortunately, most things that God does or allows are easily explainable, and things that God did not do are explainable as well, if you pull your blinders off and see what's truly going on, what God wants from us, and who God is. I firmly believe that religions, made by man, and the biblical books, written by man, lead many seekers of truth astray. These leave many questioning what they were told, doubting the validity of what they got as answers, and sometimes even causing them to reject God all together. Many an Atheist has been birthed via a path of coming through organized Christianity and a realization that the Bible was whacked out. And that's unfortunate.

I assume you're talking at me about not knowing I am the Church. That's very presumptuous for you to say that I don't understand it. Because I don't fear being an individual (one of multi-millions in fact) who seeks truth and walks a self-disciplined path in this life that leads to God and eternal life, and because I have a clear understanding of what God is, what Jesus' core message really was, and more understanding of the spirit world than is ever found in mainstream Christianity - I know better than most what "the Church" is. "The Church" are those individuals who don't let an organized religious hoax intercede in the God-man individual relationship that each of us can seek and have.

I'm not going to say "I'm a Baptist" or "I'm a Methodist" as a badge of honor to prove I worship in line with the rest of the mainstream so my theology is approved by them. If someone asks, I tell them I'm a Gnostic Christian who searches and grows independently. God lets me have pieces of the jigsaw puzzle of life as I go along and it's up to me to put them together and see the big picture. That works very well for me.

I mentioned it before in another debate thread, but I learned that President Thomas Jefferson, called a Christian by some and a heretic by others, determined for himself that the New Testament was a crock. He opened a Bible, cut out all the sayings attributed to Jesus, laid them on a table, and picked all the ones that fit with the true personality and teachings of love that Jesus was and most likely actually said. He then pasted those into a blank book and that became his Bible to live by. His "Christian" friends and acquaintances then called him a heretic and other choice names while shunning and turning away from him, but he stuck by his guns and didn't let them sway him away from his search for God's truths.

By the Grace of God that is what everyone is telling you to do by your very words. You said the very thing that I told you back to me yet you call me blind. If you have found God in your Own way then good - that is between you and God. If you don't want to go main stream then so be it. I nor anyone else can tell you how to worship God. The difference between us is that I came to God along a different path than you. I believe the Bible as a whole book. I am a Baptist by choice because the Baptist belief reflects my belief. Why be angery with me?

Docrob wrote "Hi. I am not angry - I have not been part of your dialogue but I understand your words and feel your frustration. Only I am curious what were you before you understood your beliefs ? or did this only happen after you found your beliefs were Baptist?"

Before I came to know Jesus you could say I was a 'sinner' as that term is used for those who don't know Jesus. But at a very young age I had questions like 'why am I here?' and 'who made all of this.?' But what I really wanted to know was 'why are we born just to live a short life then died?' What's the point? I went to church and sunday school on my own. I was not told to go, I went when I wanted to go. An older sister was the only one in out family of seven that went to church and she was my hell on earth. I was baptized at a young age in the Baptist church but I did understand what I was doing. It was not the fear of hell that I wanted to be Baptized but the fear of death and the promise of life after death. Did I live a perfect life after that? No, 'cause after that I learned what sin was all about. Did I still have questions? Yes. Did I question my Faith? Yes. Did I question the Bible? Yes. The Church? Yes. Jesus? Yes. Did I question that I was really SAVED? YES! I went to other churchs other than Baptist. I studied about other relegions and other writings. I still believed in God or that there is a God. I read and studied the Bible front to back and I studied books on the Bible. There is nothing in this thread about faith that I have not heard before from christians and non-christians. I can say this, that I have been through hell to get to where I am today almost to the point of wanting to kill myself. You can believe this, that when you talk to God - God will answer, even if you have to get in his face for him to hear you. I am a believer 'cause I know God hears me. He dose answer prayers.
Why a Baptist? If a church dose not teach what you believe to be the truth or a church teaches something other than the Bible that you belive to be the truth or you are in a church that you do not feel comfortable in, then find another church. I had stoped going to the church that I grew up in, was Baptized in, married in because of what this one pastor taught. I went to a different Baptist church after that or no church at all, but now I am looking for a new church home that is of the baptist faith because I belive that the Baptist come closer to the teachings of the Bible then that of other faiths or relegions. You can find fault with what I have typed and you can find fault with me. that is Okay. I have found God in Jesus and for me that is okay.