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Are all apertures the same???
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Jul 4, 2018 18:02:36   #
Elmerviking
 
TriX wrote:
(Sigh) Sir, with all due respect, you are mistaken in your assumption and interpretation of the “rule of thumb” which you are citing. That guidance, as has already been explained, relates FL to shutter speed to prevent the effects of camera shake, NOT exposure. My strong suggestion is to research that “rule of thumb” and read the results carefully, rather than just repeating inaccurate information. Now as why your camera, in your specific situation, shows a change in ISO when you zoom has NOTHING to do with the FL, only changes in aperture (perhaps RELATED to the FL) or lighting or shutter speed. You are simply misunderstanding the relationship. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts!
(Sigh) Sir, with all due respect, you are mistaken... (show quote)


1/ I never said this “ rule of thumbs” effects exposure. It is a recommendation what minimum shutter speed you should use to avoid camera shake. I said that if you use aperture priority with auto ISO the minimum shutter time seems to follow this thumb of rule, I.e. longer FL sets a shorter time. For Nikon: go to settings and chose autoISO, maximum ISO and minimum shutter speed. If you go to minimum shutter speed you can chose any time or “auto”. If you chose auto the minimum shutter time will vary depending on what Fl you use! You can even adjust this minimum auto time to be faster or slower. The factory setting very much resembles this rule of thumbs.....Shutter time to avoid camera shake should be 1/FL seconds.
So...ISO will change with different Fl because the minimum shutter time will change!
Is this soooo hard to understand?

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Jul 4, 2018 18:06:54   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
swartfort wrote:
THANK YOU to "MOST" of you for taking the time to share what your learning and experiences have brought you. Ultimately, I am looking for a longer zoom lens than the Nikor AF-S 70-300 4.-5.6 VR E lens that I have now. I am looking at either the Nikor 200-500 or the Tamron 150-600 G2. My situation is this:

My back yard is heavily shaded. It has enough wildlife in it that often it looks like the trailer to a Disney movie. With the heavy shade, and only 300 in zoom (450 with the 1.5 factor) I am getting more noise (higher ISO settings) when I shoot in Manual+Auto ISO. I am seldom happy with an exposure with a higher ISO than 3600, but really like to keep it below 2000.

The Nikor has a fixed aperture of 5.6, the Tamron is variable between 5-6.3. SO, ultimately the question is, if I use the SAME shutter speed, and set BOTH lens to +/- 500mm, AND set the aperture to the SAME f/8. Will the camera's auto ISO sense similar light and will my ISO settings be set close enough that I will not notice a significant increase in noise? ALL VARIABLES THE SAME, WILL I GET SIMILAR EXPOSURES from all THREE lenses based on lighting alone? (please, I don't want to start a NIKON/TAMRON feud, just SHOULD THE NUMBERS BE SIMILAR?

I am in a small town, so I don't have the luxury of going to the local camera store to get "professional help".

Thanks again to all who have an opinion to help me decide which of these lenses I am going to RENT FIRST to get a feel.
THANK YOU to "MOST" of you for taking th... (show quote)


The only real way to be sure of the effects you get is to rent both optics and try them out. I can tell you from personal experience that Nikon and Tamron optics use different coatings that produce slightly different color biases. In other words, in manual mode, with a pre-set or custom white balance, if you change lenses and use the same aperture on both, the color will be a bit different. The exposure is LIKELY to be within a third to half stop. But until you test, you won't know.

Probably more important to you in the long run is the amount of magnification difference you get with the two lenses. It is widely known that a 70-200mm zoom from one manufacturer does not equal a 70-200mm zoom from another manufacturer when it comes to maximum reach. A Canon 70-200 f/2.8L has a greater reach than the equivalent Nikon zoom, at certain focus distances, according to tests I've seen. This sort of tendency carries over to other brand comparisons as well. So... TEST. You may be pleasantly surprised or quite frustrated by what you learn.

lensrentals.com and borrowlenses.com are good sources of test gear.

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Jul 4, 2018 18:10:03   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Elmerviking wrote:
1/ I never said this “ rule of thumbs” effects exposure. It is a recommendation what minimum shutter speed you should use to avoid camera shake. I said that if you use aperture priority with auto ISO the minimum shutter time seems to follow this thumb of rule, I.e. longer FL sets a shorter time. For Nikon: go to settings and chose autoISO, maximum ISO and minimum shutter speed. If you go to minimum shutter speed you can chose any time or “auto”. If you chose auto the minimum shutter time will vary depending on what Fl you use! You can even adjust this minimum auto time to be faster or slower. The factory setting very much resembles this rule of thumbs.....Shutter time to avoid camera shake should be 1/FL seconds.
So...ISO will change with different Fl because the minimum shutter time will change!
Is this soooo hard to understand?
1/ I never said this “ rule of thumbs” effects exp... (show quote)


It is not at all, and I see that you have (finally) understood WHY your shutter speed and ISO is changing. It is because with your particular camera, you have made a menu setting in auto ISO mode that relates shutter speed to FL to prevent blur from camera shake, and THAT is what’s causing the change in ISO. It is not the FL directly, it is the auto ISO setting you have chosen. If you’ll look back 2 pages, you will see that I specifically mentioned menu setting in auto ISO as one potential reason for the change. Turn off auto ISO, and you’ll note that the effect doesn’t occur. Either way, we are now (I hope) in agreement, and I wish you well.

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Jul 4, 2018 18:18:08   #
Elmerviking
 
TriX wrote:
It is not at all, and I see that you have (finally) understood WHY your shutter speed and ISO is changing. It is because with your particular camera, you have made a menu setting in auto ISO mode that relates shutter speed to FL to prevent blur from camera shake, and THAT is what’s causing the change in ISO. It is not the FL directly, it is the auto ISO setting you have chosen. If you’ll look back 2 pages, you will see that I specifically mentioned menu setting in auto ISO as one potential reason for the change. Either way, we are now (I hope) in agreement, and I wish you well.
It is not at all, and I see that you have (finally... (show quote)


The thing is that even if you don’t chose auto minimum shutter time, the camera reacts the same way! That is the way auto ISO works....the camera adjust shutter time according to FL ! It does not matter if you chose auto minimum shutter speed or manually set minimum shutter speed. I just checked myself to be sure I was correct!
I wish you well also!😊

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Jul 4, 2018 18:31:57   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Elmerviking wrote:
...That is the way auto ISO works....the camera adjust shutter time according to FL ! It does not matter if you chose auto minimum shutter speed or manually set minimum shutter speed. I just checked myself to be sure I was correct!
I wish you well also!😊


Only on specific cameras AND if you combine it with another mode like aperture priority, which as I mentioned, can produce unpredictable results. Try auto ISO with manual mode (and no minimum or maximum shutter speed), and see if it behaves the same way.

Cheers

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Jul 4, 2018 18:39:33   #
Elmerviking
 
TriX wrote:
Only on specific cameras AND if you combine it with another mode like aperture priority, which as I mentioned, can produce unpredictable results. Try auto ISO with manual mode (and no minimum or maximum shutter speed), and see if it behaves the same way.

Cheers


I always shoot manual mode with auto ISO and BBF the way StevePerry recommends. Works perfect for me! Of course the aperture or shuttertime does not change when you shoot manually.
It is fun to discuss anyway😊.
I am an old fart that have owned MANY different film cameras, Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad etc. I can without bragging say that I fully understand exposure, the zone system etc
Cheers back to you!

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Jul 4, 2018 19:07:25   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Elmerviking wrote:
I always shoot manual mode with auto ISO and BBF the way StevePerry recommends. Works perfect for me! Of course the aperture or shuttertime does not change when you shoot manually.
It is fun to discuss anyway😊.
I am an old fart that have owned MANY different film cameras, Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad etc. I can without bragging say that I fully understand exposure, the zone system etc
Cheers back to you!


I’m with you (and Steve Perry) - I typically use auto ISO as well except with flash and when I use exposure compensation (doesn’t work with my particular camera on auto ISO). (I’m an old fart also 😂)

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Jul 4, 2018 20:46:42   #
IBM
 
LaBecs wrote:
The lack of compassion, your disrespect and lack of manners and civility in your answers make it apparent that you have lived alone with books instead of having "human"interaction, which is what most of us do here.... talk to others about their experience. Yes, people like you make it difficult to want to learn through forums like this.

But, hey, friends, don't get discouraged by the trolls.

Good question, swartfort, helps me learn too.


Get a grip it's not healthy to be wound that tite

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Jul 5, 2018 07:11:35   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
mwsilvers wrote:
How do you figure that? From f/1.4 to f/2 is one stop, therefore a t stop of 1.9 would be slightly less than one stop less light transmission than the maximum aperture would suggest.

The problem with DxOMark's measure is that it includes the effect of vignette wide open. That is not a measure of T-stop throughout the lens's aperture range.

All lenses have some degree of vignette wide open and it can amount to a nearly one stop overall. However, measured at the center of the image the drop-off in light is much less. This can easily be confirmed by making the measurement using the camera's spot meter rather than center weighted or average metering.

At f/8 vignette disappears in all but the worst prime lenses. The difference in light transmission is negligible - ususally less than 1/3 stop.

T-stop is affected by the quality of the coatings and the number of lens elements. Prime lenses have fewer elements than zooms so their t-stops are closer to the corresponding f-stops.

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Jul 5, 2018 10:18:46   #
SpyderJan Loc: New Smyrna Beach. FL
 
Marionsho wrote:
Thank you, swartfort.
"might be a CLUE why people hesitate to ask questions here".....Hits it right on the head.

There always has to be a few that will make the OP look like he must be to lazy to look it up, or to dumb.
Takes all the fun out of the UHH forum.


Ditto!

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Jul 5, 2018 10:37:37   #
Paladin48 Loc: Orlando
 
Steve Perry wrote:
^^This

And you can prove it by looking at any light meter. They don't have different F/stops listed for different lenses. Like Bill says, they F/5.6 lets in the same amount of light from lens to lens. There could technically be a difference due to T-Stops, but that's seldom more than 1/6th of a stop.



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Jul 5, 2018 11:08:41   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
I can’t speak for the absolute accuracy of DXOMark’s lens testing, especially considering Scotty’s comments above, but in relative terms, a quick look at their ratings for a series of Nikon lenses, all f4s, in the FL range we’re discussing shows transmission ratings between 4.4 and 4.9, about half a stop difference from best to worst. Not trivial. https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Ratings

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Jul 5, 2018 11:55:38   #
DanielB Loc: San Diego, Ca
 
Keep asking questions - there are always one or two of those kinds of condescending putzes in the crowd. Ignore them and move on.
swartfort wrote:
Thanks for the condescension. The only thing that you KNOW what I don't know is the question I asked. I do KNOW your response was pompous and might be a CLUE why people hesitate to ask questions here. I am sure there are BOOKS on kindness and generosity that you could invest in. Maybe if I join a camera club I could run into someone as KIND as you face to face. To others who try to help. A sincere thank you.

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Jul 5, 2018 17:38:37   #
Gemeader Loc: NW WA state ( upper left hand corner)
 
Marionsho wrote:
Thank you, swartfort.
"might be a CLUE why people hesitate to ask questions here".....Hits it right on the head.

There always has to be a few that will make the OP look like he must be to lazy to look it up, or to dumb.
Takes all the fun out of the UHH forum.

It's actually a good question, but with a many-sided answer. Short answer, yes, every lens in a perfect world lets in the same amount of light at the same setting. As was stated, the f stop is a ratio of aperture size to focal length. So, F4 on a 50 mm lens opens up to 1/4 of 50 mm. F 16 to 1/16th of 50 mm. Capiche? The reason lenses of different focal lengths let in. The same amount of light at the same settings is: the ‘length’. Of any lens is defined as the distance between the rearmost element in the lens to the focal plane, that is, your sensor. So a 300mm lens has a distance of 300 mm between the rearmost lens element and your film or sensor plane. That said, that rear element is for all practical purposes, the light source for the sensor. As light sources get farther away, the light intensity falls off, hence the need for a larger diameter aperture to keep all things equal. Bottom line is Yes to an excellent question. This answer may have been more than you asked for, but it is what it is.

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Jul 5, 2018 19:49:48   #
Marionsho Loc: Kansas
 
Gemeader wrote:
It's actually a good question, but with a many-sided answer. Short answer, yes, every lens in a perfect world lets in the same amount of light at the same setting. As was stated, the f stop is a ratio of aperture size to focal length. So, F4 on a 50 mm lens opens up to 1/4 of 50 mm. F 16 to 1/16th of 50 mm. Capiche? The reason lenses of different focal lengths let in. The same amount of light at the same settings is: the ‘length’. Of any lens is defined as the distance between the rearmost element in the lens to the focal plane, that is, your sensor. So a 300mm lens has a distance of 300 mm between the rearmost lens element and your film or sensor plane. That said, that rear element is for all practical purposes, the light source for the sensor. As light sources get farther away, the light intensity falls off, hence the need for a larger diameter aperture to keep all things equal. Bottom line is Yes to an excellent question. This answer may have been more than you asked for, but it is what it is.
It's actually a good question, but with a many-sid... (show quote)


Did you mean to comment on my post?
I asked no questions in my reply.
I simply made a statement.
It really sucks how bad the UHH forum has become over the years.
I really have to think long and hard before I ask a question.
After all, 99.9% of ALL questions can be found elsewhere.
No matter what gets asked, the question will be run down, by SOMEBODY.
Marion

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