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Technical versus artistic proficiency
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Jun 5, 2018 10:36:37   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
I think learned is the wrong term. Artistic ability must be developed over time. Learning technique will produce well crafted images, however, it will not automatically make those images art or artistic. One can produce the most finely crafted image and at the same have a meaningless, interesting image.

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Jun 5, 2018 10:39:51   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Does this guy have talent?
TheDman wrote:
Quit being lazy and post some images!



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Jun 5, 2018 10:40:11   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Darkroom317 wrote:
I think learned is the wrong term. Artistic ability must be developed over time. Learning technique will produce well crafted images, however, it will not automatically make those images art or artistic. One can produce the most finely crafted image and at the same have a meaningless, interesting image.



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Check out Digital Artistry section of our forum.
Jun 5, 2018 10:40:46   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Does this guy have talent?


Yes of course, that is a silly question.

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Jun 5, 2018 10:42:47   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
dsmeltz wrote:
That would not be proof of anything since I have not claimed, in this thread, to have photographic artistic ability.

Did you bother to actually read this thread or to think through your statements prior to pushing the send button?


Yet here you are recommending books.

In your opinion, what would be classified as proof, that you can learn to be artistic?

And to answer your question, I did read every post.

I would also like to ask your opinion why you don’t see the relevance of my request to see pictures. After all, we are on a photography forum, you know, we take pictures, that we look at.

My last question is: Did YOU bother reading the OP?

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Jun 5, 2018 10:46:09   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
tdekany wrote:


Thanks Thomas.

Also thank you for having a link for your flickr page so that I can see your images.

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Jun 5, 2018 10:51:36   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Does this guy have talent?


Everybody does.

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Check out Digital Artistry section of our forum.
Jun 5, 2018 10:53:54   #
Steve Perry Loc: Sylvania, Ohio
 
tdekany wrote:
Just because I can’t create art, doesn’t mean that I can’t recognize it.

I recognize you talent, don’t I? Or Art Wolfe’s, or Lisa Holloway’s or Mark Metternich’s, or TheDman’s, or Mark1729’s etc...

Your posts are usually spot on, but not this time. As far as what I believe, I base it on my personal experience. Can most of us improve? Of course!! Even I will admit that my pictures are way better today than what they were when I first got into this hobby in late 2011. But that doesn’t make me an artist. All one needs to do is visit 500pix. Comparing yourself to real talent will put us snapshot shooters back in reality.

Now, you are a real talent, and humble. A really great combo. But please don’t try to tell us that you learned to be artistic. If it was that simple, everyone who has been shooting as long as yourself would be producing the same quality of work as you have. We both know that that is simply not the case. In fact, based on that logic, anyone who has been shooting longer than you would be producing better work. We also know, that that is not true either.

Who knows, maybe I just have a very high standard as far as what I consider great photography, but I was sincere in my request to see examples. I would love to be proven wrong. That would mean that even I had a chance, even if it is very unlikely.
Just because I can’t create art, doesn’t mean that... (show quote)


You're very kind, and that's some pretty incredible company you put me with :)

However, if you could see my early stuff, you'd laugh. I learned by posting photos, taking criticism, and constantly trying to get better. In addition, I regularly look at the imagery on places like 500px or from photographers I admire and try to figure out what it is that they do that makes a particular image so compelling. It's kind of you to say that you believe I have a natural ability, but it sure doesn't feel it to me. I work on improving every day and it's mostly study and experimentation.

So, we might have to agree to disagree on this one :)

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Jun 5, 2018 11:02:22   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Steve Perry wrote:
You're very kind, and that's some pretty incredible company you put me with :)

However, if you could see my early stuff, you'd laugh. I learned by posting photos, taking criticism, and constantly trying to get better. In addition, I regularly look at the imagery on places like 500px or from photographers I admire and try to figure out what it is that they do that makes a particular image so compelling. It's kind of you to say that you believe I have a natural ability, but it sure doesn't feel it to me. I work on improving every day and it's mostly study and experimentation.

So, we might have to agree to disagree on this one :)
You're very kind, and that's some pretty incredibl... (show quote)


You are just a real humble person.

But if you had to be really honest, I’m sure that you would agree with me, that we don’t all produce the same quality. In fact, it is no secret, that you can see the work of some professional photographers who after 4/5/6 decades still produce mediocre work.

What do you think the difference is? Like the TheDman said, no matter how hard we would try, we could never be another Roger Federer. Do you think Nadal doesn’t train as hard as Federer?

And to make my point another way, why do we check out 500pix? Why not get admiration from the photo gallery section right here?

And how many of the pictures posted in the photo gallery would make it to the top at 500pix?

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Jun 5, 2018 11:11:57   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
tdekany wrote:


And to make my point another way, why do we check out 500pix? Why not get admiration from the photo gallery section right here?

And how many of the pictures posted in the photo gallery would make it to the top at 500pix?


Because the world also exists outside of the uglyhedgehog photography forum photo gallery. I keep my posting of images to a minimum on here. I would rather have people visit my website.

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Jun 5, 2018 11:17:03   #
artBob Loc: Near Chicago
 
tdekany wrote:
You are just a real humble person.

But if you had to be really honest, I’m sure that you would agree with me, that we don’t all produce the same quality. In fact, it is no secret, that you can see the work of some professional photographers who after 4/5/6 decades still produce mediocre work.

What do you think the difference is? Like the TheDman said, no matter how hard we would try, we could never be another Roger Federer. Do you think Nadal doesn’t train as hard as Federer?

And to make my point another way, why do we check out 500pix? Why not get admiration from the photo gallery section right here?


And how many of the pictures posted in the photo gallery would make it to the top at 500pix?
You are just a real humble person. br br But if ... (show quote)


Quite true, from my experience as an exhibiting artist and as an art prof.

It seems to me that there might be a bit of talking past one another in this thread, misunderstanding because the words mean different things to different people.

I would summarize that, generally, all people have some artistic and some technical abilities. These, they are born with. They can develop them both. Whether that development leads them to the highest levels (a problem here—are we talking sales, exhibition venues, local noteriety....?) is determined by their birth inheritance.

As for technical proficiency and artistic vision (I define this as an unusual way to see things), they are sliding scales. Usually, an extreme richness is one is not enough to make great photography. Both are needed, in appropriate measures. "Appropriate"? Ah, there's the discussion, involving taste and standards.

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Check out Film Photography section of our forum.
Jun 5, 2018 11:21:21   #
Steve Perry Loc: Sylvania, Ohio
 
tdekany wrote:
You are just a real humble person.

But if you had to be really honest, I’m sure that you would agree with me, that we don’t all produce the same quality. In fact, it is no secret, that you can see the work of some professional photographers who after 4/5/6 decades still produce mediocre work.

What do you think the difference is? Like the TheDman said, no matter how hard we would try, we could never be another Roger Federer. Do you think Nadal doesn’t train as hard as Federer?

And to make my point another way, why do we check out 500pix? Why not get admiration from the photo gallery section right here?

And how many of the pictures posted in the photo gallery would make it to the top at 500pix?
You are just a real humble person. br br But if ... (show quote)


You bring up some good points, but I still can't get past the fact that I used to be as artistic as a washing machine. What I do, I've learned. I can't speak to why photographers who have been at it for years don't improve - maybe they believe themselves to be excellent and no longer have any urge / motivation to improve. Post any mediocre photo to facebook and you'll get tons of "likes" no matter how bad it is. I think this sometimes kills any motivation to get better.

In fact, that's one reason why I like 500px - you can't kid yourself about they quality of your work. If you end up towards the top, you know you did something right, If not, you know you need to improve (or get more followers LOL).

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Jun 5, 2018 11:35:15   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Steve Perry wrote:
You bring up some good points, but I still can't get past the fact that I used to be as artistic as a washing machine. What I do, I've learned. I can't speak to why photographers who have been at it for years don't improve - maybe they believe themselves to be excellent and no longer have any urge / motivation to improve. Post any mediocre photo to facebook and you'll get tons of "likes" no matter how bad it is. I think this sometimes kills any motivation to get better.

In fact, that's one reason why I like 500px - you can't kid yourself about they quality of your work. If you end up towards the top, you know you did something right, If not, you know you need to improve (or get more followers LOL).
You bring up some good points, but I still can't g... (show quote)



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Jun 5, 2018 11:39:14   #
artBob Loc: Near Chicago
 
Steve Perry wrote:
You bring up some good points, but I still can't get past the fact that I used to be as artistic as a washing machine. What I do, I've learned. I can't speak to why photographers who have been at it for years don't improve - maybe they believe themselves to be excellent and no longer have any urge / motivation to improve. Post any mediocre photo to facebook and you'll get tons of "likes" no matter how bad it is. I think this sometimes kills any motivation to get better.

In fact, that's one reason why I like 500px - you can't kid yourself about they quality of your work. If you end up towards the top, you know you did something right, If not, you know you need to improve (or get more followers LOL).
You bring up some good points, but I still can't g... (show quote)

"I used to be as artistic..." shows that we can learn. It doesn't tell us much about whether we are born with different ultimate abilities. The interlacing of these two facts seems to be the basis of the problem in this discussion.

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Jun 5, 2018 11:59:43   #
dsmeltz Loc: Philadelphia
 
tdekany wrote:
Please provide just one example, where I called work of art SNAPSHOTS.

I understand that ignorance is bliss, but wouldn’t you rather live in reality?


WTF are you even talking about? I said nothing about snapshots! You, my friend, need professional help. Or you can just keep trolling along.

I can guess which one you will choose.

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