bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Actually, I think you may have learned the BEST advice ever. They will let ANYONE who seems to know what they are doing, teach on a multitude of subjects.

Just like here on UHH. Even people with the best intentions, can give you their best opinions with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, we all have some misconceptions, even those of us with a lot of formal training and experience. Take it all as "advice" but always do your own testing and research.

In my humble opinion, you are correct in the fact that the teacher was feeding you a line of BS, but it may be his/her experience as a jpeg shooter, possibly with some monochrome filters, or his/her lack of PP experience, that it was meant to be helpful.

xt2 Loc: British Columbia, Canada

Good question. With my Nikons, I do the B&W in post with various B&W converter software for more control and in my mind, a better product. With my Fuji gear, I always use in-camera, Acros with its numerous options for what I consider to be the be some of the best B&W product period. Pretty much a personal choice my friend.

Cheers...

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

You are making some assumptions there.

The part about previewing the B&W on your camera's LCD was not wrong and a lot of us agree with it.

I don't think we can judge the context in which he made the claim about Manual producing richer colors so we can't jump to the conclusion that he did not know what he was talking about.

So I would cut the teacher some slack. After all, he got paid for teaching the class and got a free cruise out of it. He was ahead of both of us on that score.

rgrenaderphoto Loc: Hollywood, CA

I once took a Nikon factory seminar led by two former Associated and Agent France Press photographers. Going through the class, they asked who shot in Program, Aperture and Shutter mode. When they asked if anybody shot in Masochist Mode, I knew I made a mistake taking the class.

sidpearce

Shoot Raw in colour, select sky and darken clouds then convert to B/W.

radiojohn

Sound advice!

radiojohn

As a guy who taught basic digital camera use (non-credit) at a college for almost ten years, let me tell you it is a challenge to satisfy all students. Most know NOTHING about exposure and don't have the time or attention span to learn. A few ask how to change the batteries. Some make an earnest attempt to understand aperture priority, etc. But without first firmly grasping the relationships between ISO/shutter speed/lens openings, it is rough sledding. I am beginning to agree with those who force students turn off all automation for the first few weeks of a class. My class was 2-3 nights.

blackest Loc: Ireland

To be honest You were being taught about light and color in the 2 seminars. Not a class in how to work your camera.

For the black & white he wanted you to look at the light and shadow and its effect on the portrait.

The second then added color into the mix.

Maybe these were taught the right way , not how to best to operate your camera but how to see.

You can learn how to operate the camera any time but this seems to have concentrated on the 90-95% of photography that matters most and often seems overlooked on this site.

Ron Dial Loc: Cuenca, Ecuador

I think both of your presenters were full of _______. If you take a pic having it pre-set to B&W in the camera, it is probably faster to write to the card. but in converting a color image to B&W in post has an infinite number of B&W modes. Most of these black and white software packages work better when originating with a color image.

The second seminar is incorrect in the way it was said. The quality of the capture is what determines the richness of the color. If he is implying that Manual delivers a more complete capture as opposed to the camera automatics somehow needing to "stretch" to reach the proper exposure, I suppose it is theoretically possible, but I would never make a blanket statement. True if you are shooting something that is black, the automatics tend to set the exposure to measure it as 18% gray. If you shoot in manual mode then you can adjust the exposure and get a true black. Same thing with something that is all white. Maybe that is what he meant. Keep in mind that the lightmeter in a camera always tries to make dark black and bright white to 18% gray (about the same meter reading as green lawn in bright sun, which you can substitute for a gray card). If you shoot RAW you can compensate for this in the original conversion.

The correct manual compensation for deep black to black is about 1.5 - 2 stops, same thing with white. Try this. Go out and shoot an oil tanker from a train. Automatics will present the image as gray. Then find something white, like a bread truck and the white will be presented as a light gray, not as a brilliant white.

geezer7 Loc: Michigan

I agree that we were being taught about light and color. He emphasized b&w portraits and of course checking results in the LCD required shooting in monochrome. I just felt that converting raw to B&W in post could yield better results.
The presenter was one of the onboard photographers and there was no charge for the seminars. Generally as has been speculated, the audience was mostly pretty uninformed so perhaps he was aiming his recommendations at that level!
Thanks for all your comments. The option to shoot raw and jpg in monochrome would be good for evaluating results in camera. I have a D7100 and don't know if that is possible with my camera.

LoneRangeFinder Loc: Left field

Yes it is possible with the D7100.

speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho

Setting the camera to monochrome only makes sense to me, if one shoots in raw, because you will still be converting in post, but it will allow you to "see" in black & white!

speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho

Shooting in manual surely does not equal richer colors, unless that's what the users intend is and he set the camera accordingly! So, that's just bad wording! Mmmhh, that's strange, I just clicked on "edit" on the above post, so I can just add this to it, instead it made a whole new post ( I did not click on " quote reply")!

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

We have all heard the abbreviation T.M.I. For “too much information”. I coined another one N.E.I- "not enough information". I'll explain. In a shot course the instruction oftentimes becomes a compilation of disjointed tips and advice. Advice on more complex subjects is condensed or abridged for easy consumption and much of the underlying logic is omitted. OR- in such a short period if time, the “students” may not absorb everything even if all the and rhyme and reason is explained.

Some of the advice that the OP alluded does POSSIBLY make sense with further explanation.

I should mention that when I offer advice, I usually base it on what I do in my work, procedures that yield successful results and why they work. I do not advise on equipment, materials or methods that I have never had the opportunity to use or have no research knowledge of. I prefer to explain cretin basic theories with the hope that folks will apply the information and decide on things for themselves. And yes...there are alternative methods for just about everything.

So...If I am shooting a requirement for black and white photography, I do prefer to shoot it in monochromatic mode for a number of reasons. I can asses the contrast in terms of panchromatic rendition of different colors right on the spot and determine IF filtration is needed and how it should be employed. I realize that some photographers only relate the term “panchromatic” to film but it applies to a proper rendition of tones that can especially apply to portraiture in that you don't want to use a filter that, for example, lightens the skin tone but renders the subjects blue eyes as almost white.

By the way- there is no use in telling folks to go back to film unless they have a working analog darkroom or access to good processing and printing facilities. It is doubtful that newcomers to our craft are gonna go there. Absolutely excellent black and white photography can be achieved with modern digital equipment and a bit of artistic and technical savvy.

If I want to make color images on the same job, I can switch back and fortr or use two cameras.

Oftentimes on commercial shoots, the art director or stylists are working with me so I can tether the camera to a laptop and we can see the monochromatic results right on the spot. We can make decisions, revisions there and then and make certain the client will be pleased and that we will meet the deadline.

Usually, I like to approach black and white work on it's own merits and criteria rather than decide to go monochromatic as an afterthought or a remedial action for a bad color shot. Yes- sometimes I have to do that but it is not my favorite method. When shooting monochrome, I am more concerned with line, texture and tones and I don't want to be “fooled” by pretty or contrasting colors.

Unless I am mistaken, I don't believe that good rendition of highlights, middle tones and shadows or inclusion of all the “zones” is solely dependent on post procession manipulations as long as exposure, dynamic range, lighting ratio and all contrast consideration are properly addressed in shooting.

I am certain that good black and white results can be obtained BOTH in the camera or in post-processing as long as the photographer has comprehension of panchromatic rendition, orthochromatic rendition and how colors of various hews and densities relate to the gray scale.

As for MANUAL operation in portraiture, there is some sense to that method. In both a studio, location, or out of doors environments, the photographer needs to maintain exacting control over exposure, lighting ratio for key and contrast, depth of field as to inclusion or blurring of background detail and artistic consideration such as “bokeh” etc. Selection of ISO settings, shutter speeds and aperture settings have to be selected accordingly. In a strictly studio setting, where the photographer is completely in control of lightning placement, most portraitists have standardized setting for the various kinds of work that they produce. In all of theses scenarios, manual settings are more conducive to theses requirements, procedures and methodologies. Even basic exposure readings need to be sampled from the right “zone” on the subject and integrated or matrix readings would not yield the best results. If any automation is used, perhaps aperture priority might be a good choice in existing light situations.

Frankly, I have been to many workshops, seminars, classes and lectures and SOMETIMES, I learned how NOT to do things or present a seminar. That's why I never asked for a refund - everything can result in a learning experience. Mostly, all of my mentors, teachers and instructors were great. I consider myself a fast study, a quick learner, I take good notes, I listen up, I ask questions and participate and do my homework and yet- I have gone back to a few of my best teacher's classes multiple times. Good teachers can get into incredible detail, drill down deeply and dispense megatons of information. We are all human, we are not audio or video recorders or computers and everyone has a saturation point.

Some concepts can not be fully explained in quick tips. That's why I write long verbose posts. I was so busy learning photography that I did poorly in English class and totally neglected typing class so excuse the bad grammar and typos.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I think you were replying to someone else's post. None of the things you stated, refer to what I said.