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RAW vs JPEG
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May 13, 2018 10:37:27   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Yes, you have found from practice that you can dispense with the value of the RAW file format offering more latitude in later development.

Knowing your camera, its settings, and your expectation for a satisfactory photograph will allow you (and others who do the same) to shoot only in the JPEG file format.

I read a book by a studio photographer who so adjusts all camera settings and lighting that he can nail the exposure using the JPEG file format, bypassing any further development in the software. His photographs come straight out of the camera ready for use and for printing.
Kuzano wrote:
I do Not shoot RAW. Jpeg fills all my needs and avoiding post processing RAW gives me more time to shoot in the field. Plus, shooting Jpeg requires that my technique with the camera advance more in getting what I want without the computer time, and using the advancing features of the processing available in the camera's of today.

Please keep in mind that I have consulted and maintained computers for 25 years. I post processed with Elements and Photoshop for about 5 years and found RAW to be overly time consuming and rather stultifying as a process. Otherwise I had/have shot film since the 60's and Digital (Jpeg and TIFF from the camera) since the mid 90's. I have located camera's that output TIFF, Jpeg and RAW.

During the time I post processed RAW, the process and time involved nearly ruined photography as a pastime/hobby for me.

Choosing proper camera's and sticking to Jpeg have allowed me to treat photography much as I did with film, then and now!
I do Not shoot RAW. Jpeg fills all my needs and av... (show quote)

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May 13, 2018 10:38:22   #
wteffey Loc: Ocala, FL USA
 
Can't hurt. Might help. After comparing my JPEG from RAW results, for most of my photos JPEG from the camera with a little PP would be fine. RAW does not take much time however, and I can fix exposure and color if necessary from one screen. I also like the ability to screen sharpening in RAW.

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May 13, 2018 10:40:23   #
RickL Loc: Vail, Az
 
DW wrote:
So I’ve been reading about the pros and cons of shooting RAW vs JPEG. Which do you use abd why?


I only shoot raw. I have greater creative ability over my photography

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May 13, 2018 10:40:54   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Delderby wrote:
You can edit JPGs in the same way as RAWs, but RAWs will give you more dynamic range, approx. 3 stops, say 1.5 stops either end of the scale, to play with. This means that you might be able to recover more detail in shadows or recover more detail from near blown highlights with the RAW file. However, if your increasing experience allows you to recognise exposure probs at the time then you can always bracket your shots to give you three different exposures. Technology is improving JPGs and closing the gap.
The problem is file size. Now that we have sensors producing huge files, say 55 mpx, you will get less than 200 pics to the Gb of storage space.
You can edit JPGs in the same way as RAWs, but RAW... (show quote)


Not completely true. A raw file is limited to broad, rules-based edits. It's like creating a collection of custom settings in your camera for contrast, sharpening, saturation, color space, white balance and noise reduction. In a raw converter you can do that, but take it a little further with the ability to apply some adjustments to local areas of the image as well as globally to the entire image. This is all done at full capture resolution color and bit depth - usually 14 bit in the camera.

Editing a jpeg out of the camera is taking an image that has already been processed, reduced to 8 bit, and compressed to make the file smaller than the original. If you use a pixel based editor - like Corel or Photoshop, you can do considerably more editing - but the changes need to be kept fairly subtle. It's not easy, though it is possible, to change an incorrect white balance setting - but you may encounter clipping, out of gamut color and/or banding in the process. If an image has been overly de-noised in the camera - you cannot ever bring back the fine details lost in the process. Jpeg is probably the worst file format to use for editing.

The better solution is to use a 16 bit tiff or psd file. However converting from a jpeg to either format is not going to give you back anything discarded when the camera created the jpeg. But it will keep you from losing more data.

The one excepting to being able to edit a jpeg like a raw file comes with those raw converters that will open and edit a jpeg, or a pixel editor like Photoshop that has the ability to open a jpeg image as a raw file, or better yet, a camera raw filter - that allows you to use the same tools and sliders available in Adobe Camera Raw without really leaving the Photoshop editing space.

But spending a short time with a raw file in a raw editor, then taking the same image as a jpeg and editing that - the difference in editing capability becomes immediately apparent - there is a bi difference between editing a jpeg and a raw file.

A jpeg image - which is 8 bits by definition, can only properly display 8 stops of dynamic range -a 14 bit raw file can record up to 14 stops of dynamic range - theoretically speaking. Most display devices and media can only display on average 5-8 stops of dynamic range. So, regardless of what you capture, it will be tonally compressed down to 5-8 stops in the process. However, if the camera only produces an 8 stop image, without paying any special attention to selective tone mapping - you will lose detail and information at the extremes - and that is what will eventually be compressed for output. But when you start with a 14 bit raw file - you have considerably more dynamic range, and less clipping at the extremes, which can generate a more tonally "complete" image at the end of the process.

Unless the industry finalizes a standard for a 16 bit jpeg (Jpeg XT or Jpeg XL) - you are not likely to see this happening for a while. And the argument of which is better will be finally put to rest - a 16 bit jpeg will likely be close in size to a lossless compressed raw file. I think that getting the industry to re-tool itself for 16 bit jpegs will be a huge undertaking - though not out of the realm of possibility.

This is a great article explaining dynamic range

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dynamic-range.htm

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May 13, 2018 10:49:49   #
RickL Loc: Vail, Az
 
DW wrote:
So I’ve been reading about the pros and cons of shooting RAW vs JPEG. Which do you use abd why?


In the film days, I had my own complete photo lab. I spent hours in post processing. As a result my photography was very well received in the states and Europe

I only shot in black and white.

I look at post processing as my digital lab and I work solely in Raw.

Rick

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May 13, 2018 10:54:43   #
mborn Loc: Massachusetts
 
I only photograph in Rawbecaue I want the most information possible. Except when I goof and accidentally change my settings to JPEG and don't check my camera

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May 13, 2018 11:00:57   #
drklrd Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
 
imagemeister wrote:
I shoot JPEG exclusively. I have very limited resources. I am not a computer geek. I am a reality photographer coming from the film era. The less post processing I do, the better I like it.

In the early days of sensors, dynamic range was pretty slim and shooting raw was a relatively considerable advantage/improvement - in difference to today with much better sensors/technology- the advantage of raw - when you can find it - is minuscule. There are prices to pay for shooting raw - monetarily and speed wise and with my relatively limited resources the price far outweighs any advantage for me. Lots of people make lots of money from people shooting raw - one of the main reasons it is preached so heavily by the media.

If high contrast subjects bother you, wait for better light, shoot HDR, use graduated ND filters and expose your JPEG properly.

All of the neat IN CAMERA functions such as sweep panorama and Clear Image Zoom all require shooting JPEG.

In conclusion, I am a photographer first - who incidentally has to use a computer. Most people shooting raw are computer geeks first who incidentally take pictures.

..
I shoot JPEG exclusively. I have very limited reso... (show quote)


I came from the film era too. I shoot professionally in jpeg like you. Why? Because it all ends up in the year book and that is what the studio wants.
I retired when the wedding studios went digital as I just did not want to spend 10 G and the next year spend 10 G again. I was trained as an electronics expert spent that time buying my pro gear (both 35mm and 2 1/4 square). I find I can do most everything in jpeg using Adobe. On important shots I might go to RAW other than when you save after editing a jpeg it looses some small amount of data due to compression in jpeg saves I just save it as a PSD and make it a jpeg when I need to. As far as being a geek, I was on stage playing guitar and dancing too much to be a true geek. I think the format should match the job needed just like using film, (chromes, polaroids and negatives) each had their places in film days.

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May 13, 2018 11:03:23   #
drklrd Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
 
mborn wrote:
I only photograph in Rawbecaue I want the most information possible. Except when I goof and accidentally change my settings to JPEG and don't check my camera


Did that once. Shot the assignment in raw and when I was uploading I saw my error. So I batched into jpeg and turned it in that way.

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May 13, 2018 11:21:20   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
Gene51 wrote:
Thanks!


Wish I could do that.

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May 13, 2018 11:26:57   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
davefales wrote:
A point made well by some here: if you are not comfortable with computer post processing, there is no reason to shoot RAW. If you are comfortable, RAW gives you better opportunities to bring out details that your eye missed.


A reason to shoot RAW even if you aren't comfortable with post processing is that you might become comfortable some time in the future, and you could go back and improve favorite images you shot in the past.

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May 13, 2018 11:49:32   #
chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY
 
DW wrote:
So I’ve been reading about the pros and cons of shooting RAW vs JPEG. Which do you use abd why?


I shoot RAW for exposure and WB flexibility and other PP benefits, JPG for expediency (journalists may be better with JPG for tight deadlines)...but being I hardly use the JPG I may switch to RAW+RAW (card 1+ backup 2). JPG may apply some unwanted compression or artifacts, while RAW is like getting an undeveloped, unprocessed, re-exportable roll of film with same images as many times as needed.

Note if using some in-camera effects or editing JPG may be the only option.

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May 13, 2018 11:51:31   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
A reason to shoot RAW even if you aren't comfortable with post processing is that you might become comfortable some time in the future, and you could go back and improve favorite images you shot in the past.


Yes!

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May 13, 2018 12:15:28   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Not wholly true anymore, with the introduction of the new graduated filter in ACR: "A raw file is limited to broad, rules-based edits."

This ACR filter can isolate the sky area with a mask for limiting edits to it. This filter obviates a physical filter for most conditions.

Regarding photo-editing, Scott Kelby says: Fix it in ACR, and finish it in Photoshop.

I've found his approach as valid from my experience.
Gene51 wrote:
Not completely true. A raw file is limited to broad, rules-based edits. It's like creating a collection of custom settings in your camera for contrast, sharpening, saturation, color space, white balance and noise reduction. In a raw converter you can do that, but take it a little further with the ability to apply some adjustments to local areas of the image as well as globally to the entire image. This is all done at full capture resolution color and bit depth - usually 14 bit in the camera.

Editing a jpeg out of the camera is taking an image that has already been processed, reduced to 8 bit, and compressed to make the file smaller than the original. If you use a pixel based editor - like Corel or Photoshop, you can do considerably more editing - but the changes need to be kept fairly subtle. It's not easy, though it is possible, to change an incorrect white balance setting - but you may encounter clipping, out of gamut color and/or banding in the process. If an image has been overly de-noised in the camera - you cannot ever bring back the fine details lost in the process. Jpeg is probably the worst file format to use for editing.

The better solution is to use a 16 bit tiff or psd file. However converting from a jpeg to either format is not going to give you back anything discarded when the camera created the jpeg. But it will keep you from losing more data.

The one excepting to being able to edit a jpeg like a raw file comes with those raw converters that will open and edit a jpeg, or a pixel editor like Photoshop that has the ability to open a jpeg image as a raw file, or better yet, a camera raw filter - that allows you to use the same tools and sliders available in Adobe Camera Raw without really leaving the Photoshop editing space.

But spending a short time with a raw file in a raw editor, then taking the same image as a jpeg and editing that - the difference in editing capability becomes immediately apparent - there is a bi difference between editing a jpeg and a raw file.

A jpeg image - which is 8 bits by definition, can only properly display 8 stops of dynamic range -a 14 bit raw file can record up to 14 stops of dynamic range - theoretically speaking. Most display devices and media can only display on average 5-8 stops of dynamic range. So, regardless of what you capture, it will be tonally compressed down to 5-8 stops in the process. However, if the camera only produces an 8 stop image, without paying any special attention to selective tone mapping - you will lose detail and information at the extremes - and that is what will eventually be compressed for output. But when you start with a 14 bit raw file - you have considerably more dynamic range, and less clipping at the extremes, which can generate a more tonally "complete" image at the end of the process.

Unless the industry finalizes a standard for a 16 bit jpeg (Jpeg XT or Jpeg XL) - you are not likely to see this happening for a while. And the argument of which is better will be finally put to rest - a 16 bit jpeg will likely be close in size to a lossless compressed raw file. I think that getting the industry to re-tool itself for 16 bit jpegs will be a huge undertaking - though not out of the realm of possibility.

This is a great article explaining dynamic range

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dynamic-range.htm
Not completely true. A raw file is limited to broa... (show quote)

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May 13, 2018 12:17:29   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
Gene51 wrote:
Thanks!


Bought my D7200 from Craigs list, don't know what to use for shooting RAW . You seem to be the most knowledgeable person on here about the subject. Don't have a lot of room on my computer. Like to give it a try. Where do I start. Thanks.

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May 13, 2018 12:17:48   #
erickter Loc: Dallas,TX
 
Kuzano wrote:
I do Not shoot RAW. Jpeg fills all my needs and avoiding post processing RAW gives me more time to shoot in the field. Plus, shooting Jpeg requires that my technique with the camera advance more in getting what I want without the computer time, and using the advancing features of the processing available in the camera's of today.

Please keep in mind that I have consulted and maintained computers for 25 years. I post processed with Elements and Photoshop for about 5 years and found RAW to be overly time consuming and rather stultifying as a process. Otherwise I had/have shot film since the 60's and Digital (Jpeg and TIFF from the camera) since the mid 90's. I have located camera's that output TIFF, Jpeg and RAW.

During the time I post processed RAW, the process and time involved nearly ruined photography as a pastime/hobby for me.

Choosing proper camera's and sticking to Jpeg have allowed me to treat photography much as I did with film, then and now!
I do Not shoot RAW. Jpeg fills all my needs and av... (show quote)


Agree. Exclusive raw usage for me is overkill and time wasted. At times, yes. But Jpg goes far when conditions are right, which is most of the time.

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