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Apr 28, 2018 03:30:47   #
Cheese
 
btbg wrote:
For all of you who are unaware desert is an extremely sensitive ecosystem. Footprints can last for months or even years. To be concerned about the possibility that others might damage a beautiful sight makes perfect sense.

Based on the other videos that Ben Hogan posted during his 2017 trip to the Colorado Plateau the canyon he is talking about is near the wave, white pocket, and buckskin gulch. The area is deemed to be so sensitive by the BLM that the wave has a permit system that only allows 20 visitors a day. White Pocket is also expected to have limited entry by the end of the year if it doesn't already, while buckskin gulch requires permits to enter.

Hogan hiked six miles one way carrying an 8x10 view camera and took four photos in three days, all on fuji velvia 50 sheet film. If you watch his other videos he gives several hints as to the general area he is in. It is somewhere in the Escalante River Drainage and near a slot canyon.

I was in the general area last year, and absolutely understand Hogan's concern. I left a trailhead with a sign that said please remain on trail at all times just before dawn. After hiking nearly five miles to get to the geologic feature that I was planning on photographing I found that several people had failed to stay on the trail and there were footprints everywhere. After spending nearly an hour I finally found a spot with a rocky outcroopping for a foreground and set up my tripod with just minutes before the sun came up too far for the shot I wanted.

Just as I was getting ready to shoot a small group of hikers came up the trail and one immediately walked straight in front of my camera and climbed onto the fragile balanced rocks that I was photographing so that his buddies could take a photo.

Ruined my entire photo shoot.

In recent history two boy scout leaders have destroyed a balanced rock in Utah, another individual has destroyed a balanced rock at Cape Kiwanda Oregon, and there is an earlier post here that shows a waterfall in Joshua Tree National Park that has been tagged. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that some people do not behave responsibly in the wild.

Even well intentioned individuals often cause damage. I agree with Hogan. If you go to the trouble to do your own research and find a photographic location why should others be able to get to the site without doing the work?

I will happily share how to get to photo locations that are near roads and in plain sight, such as Thor's well at Cape Perpetual Oregon. Everyone already knows where it is anyway, but a similar feature in Hawaii that took me hours to research and find I'm not telling anyone where it is.

I take what Hogan says at face value. He doesn't say anything about people leaving trash in his video. He says they will degrade the environment, which is obviously true. Footprints mess up nature photos. More people mean more footprints.

I spend months researching before taking a photography trip. So should anyone else who is serious about photography. That's so I get photos that are uniquely mine. You want proof of what people do to beautiful sights just look at Horseshoe Bend outside of Page Arizona. It is a beautiful location, but they are now building a viewing area and making the rest of the location out of bounds to stop people from doing any more damage. That means that by next spring you can still photograph the site, but you will no longer be able to get right next to the edge and put a clinging piece of brush into the foreground. The place has been loved to death.

Sure, it is close to the road, but it doesn't matter how far you hike someone else has already been there, and they have often left footprints in really bad places.

I used to go to the Green Lakes in the Three Sisters Wilderness area. In the fall the lupine in front of the lakes were absolutely beautiful. One of my favorite places on earth. The last time I went back people had trampled all the lupine so that they could get to the lake, ruining the site. It is now under repair, but will take years to fully recover.

Last year a kid playing with fireworks destroyed much of the Columbia River Gorge waterfall region, probably for much of the rest of my lifetime, so don't try to tell me that people don't cause damage to our natural sites.

Hogan is right regardless of his true motivation.
For all of you who are unaware desert is an extrem... (show quote)



Damn that Neil Armstrong for leaving his footprints on the moon.

Ruined the photo shoot I was planning for tonight.




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Apr 28, 2018 07:52:37   #
Krittermom
 
I have to wonder why people are offended. If a person puts in the effort to go out and find different and unique places, there is no reason for that’s person to be obligated to tell others where these places are. He put in the work. He got the shots. There is absolutely nothing to stop others from putting in the effort on their own.

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Apr 28, 2018 10:59:10   #
Jesu S
 
Cheese wrote:
Damn that Neil Armstrong for leaving his footprints on the moon.

Ruined the photo shoot I was planning for tonight.





Perhaps he is not sharing the location because the photos were shot in a studio. You know ... like the moon landing 😀

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Apr 28, 2018 11:02:09   #
Jesu S
 
Krittermom wrote:
I have to wonder why people are offended. If a person puts in the effort to go out and find different and unique places, there is no reason for that’s person to be obligated to tell others where these places are. He put in the work. He got the shots. There is absolutely nothing to stop others from putting in the effort on their own.


I think people are offended because of his holier than thou attitude about the environmental impact of sharing the location.

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Apr 28, 2018 11:07:33   #
Jesu S
 
Diocletian wrote:
I don't understand why 'elitist' has become a pejorative. The greater portion of the American Pubic, to me, could use some 'elitist' education so they don't think that Somebody who uses words of more than one syllable are being elitist . A few years ago people were saying that PBS was elitist because it showed ballet and classical music along with Muppets . All are great programs. And Gosh if you actually watched ballet and listened to classical music, for free, the world would be a better place. But it is so much easier to watch porn on the Internet, just so you are not being 'elitist '.

So why should this photographer hand out for free all of the research that he did? He spent a lot of time on Google Earth, satellite maps, looking for information on the Internet, a lot of time invested and you think he's being 'elitist' if he doesn't share all that research and time and effort with everybody in the world. Do you also think that Microsoft and Intel and Apple and Amazon should share all of their research with everybody in the world? Or are they being elitist too.

Sheesh.

Our national parks are certainly there for the people even if they do promptly throw trash into it. Have you taken a look in the grand canyon lately ? Look down below the outlooks and you'll see garbage strewn all over .
I don't understand why 'elitist' has become a pejo... (show quote)




Because an elitist, by definition, is a person who considers himself superior than others.

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Apr 28, 2018 15:35:57   #
frazee
 
Yes it is sad what people can do to nature. But practicing ethical photography is important. Getting back to the topic, watch Doug Gardener on public television. He not only tells you where, but what time to shoot, how to make a quick blind out of native materials and also shares fstop, aperture, ISO, etc. He is a great photographer! He normally covers North America. He also does night photography in the Carolina mountains. They paint waterfalls at night with flash lights. Good shooting!!

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Apr 28, 2018 20:25:08   #
btbg
 
By the way if you take the time to look at Ben Horne's videos of the trip that led to the link that is causing all the outrage here one of the videos, I believe it's day six of his trip in Capital Reef National Park he finds a juniper tree that he wants to shoot with a large rock face behind it. He says that he would like to have gone up closer to the tree, but after looking the area had a criobiotic crust (I think that's how it's spelled), so he chose to use a larger lens and stay on the trail so he didn't cause any damage.

He's practicing exactly what he is saying in the video linked here. And for the individual who posted the sarcastic remark about footprints as far as I know when the BLM says to remain on the trail at all times that means to remain on the trail. Sensitive areas are just that, sensitive, and tromping all over it causes damage.

By all means enjoy the outdoors, but follow the rules. Those who don't ruin it for everyone else.

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Apr 28, 2018 22:02:10   #
frazee
 
I agree a lot of damage can be caused by revealing locations. We have bears now where we did not have them growing up. You just have to be careful working around Bears. Let them adjust to you. In the history of Smoky Mountain National Park only one person has been killed by a bear. They are fun to photograph and I love to watch grizzlies fish! Florida is great about giving locations to photograph. They give maps of the eastern bird trail and the western bird trail. Just write Florida Fish and Game and they will be glad to send you info. Merritt Island is my favorite and we were lucky one year and photographed French Pelicans. We were there years ago and Neil Armstrong did not leave any footprints. He was in a kayak fishing! Great shooting!

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Apr 29, 2018 02:39:42   #
Cheese
 
By his own admission, no one asked him for the location when he posted his photos. Seems to me he is simply trying to create a buzz for his work by manufacturing this "controversy".

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Apr 29, 2018 02:53:59   #
Cheese
 
cambriaman wrote:
I agree. Isn't photography about creating YOUR vision?

Shooting the exact same shot as has been seen before of an iconic location seems to me not very creative. I must admit that my wife has a better eye for unique subjects/scenes than I do.


Not all photography is intended to be creative. Sometimes it is simply to record a visit to a place or an event. Celebrities pose for selfies with thousands of fans. Not very creative. To each his own.

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Apr 29, 2018 03:07:31   #
Cheese
 
RWR wrote:
It’s pretty sorry when one is too useless to go find their own subjects.


Are you suggesting that the millions of people who take pictures of the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, Big Ben, St Peters, the Leaning Tower, the Great Wall of China, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Sydney Opera House, etc., are all "useless"?

What about the hundreds of bald eagles and Ospreys we see on UHH? ALl taken by "useless" photographers?

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Apr 29, 2018 23:08:58   #
NickPJr Loc: Forney, TX
 
Marianne M Banks wrote:
I think he has valid points. Our parks are abused and fragile areas overused.
He takes time and effort to get his photos.
I imagine he feels some sense of ownership. He doesn’t want to “setup a shoot” for the masses.
Very valid point made was that everyone is free to do some research on their own.
Maybe come up with a fantastic shot they earned.


Ownership? Balderdash! We, as American Citizens ALL OWN the parks. Those of us here that treck into the woods, deserts or mountains and find an area, item, scene or other vision through the lens take time and effort. If I'm out pursuing what I love with my equipment how is it different than a mountain climber and Everest? Sorry, I just don't buy the theory behind the claim.

Truth be told, he's most likely afraid someone else might shoot it better, clearer and more composed.

JMHO

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Apr 30, 2018 01:48:57   #
RRS Loc: Not sure
 
NickPJr wrote:
Ownership? Balderdash! We, as American Citizens ALL OWN the parks. Those of us here that treck into the woods, deserts or mountains and find an area, item, scene or other vision through the lens take time and effort. If I'm out pursuing what I love with my equipment how is it different than a mountain climber and Everest? Sorry, I just don't buy the theory behind the claim.

Truth be told, he's most likely afraid someone else might shoot it better, clearer and more composed.

JMHO
Ownership? Balderdash! We, as American Citizens ... (show quote)


Truth be told your last line is pure "Balderdash" JMO. True, we all own the parks, but some that we own still require an entrance fee to access the parks that are ours. If you spent years studying the habits of wildlife and where they would be at different seasons why would you give out the GPS location of a bear or wolf den? Everyone else may not care as much about the animals as you and may not give the animal the space that it needs, I see this all the time in our National Parks. I am very careful with whom I will share info with. I spend a lot of time and money locating the subjects that I photograph and no we don't own any of them, they are all out there, all anyone has to do is to find them on their own. The other option is to hire a guide to take you out and set you up for a shot but then you pay them. There are people that don't want to put in the time and people that just don't have the time and they are the people I feel for. Besides that GPS function on my camera eats up the battery and I've never had a problem getting back to the area once I've been there. This post is about "Location Sharing" and we all know where Everest is, I think. When climbing Everest you would be using Sherpa's but I don't know any photographers that can afford that luxury, we just carry our own equipment.

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Apr 30, 2018 03:01:28   #
Cheese
 
RRS wrote:
Truth be told your last line is pure "Balderdash" JMO. True, we all own the parks, but some that we own still require an entrance fee to access the parks that are ours. If you spent years studying the habits of wildlife and where they would be at different seasons why would you give out the GPS location of a bear or wolf den? Everyone else may not care as much about the animals as you and may not give the animal the space that it needs, I see this all the time in our National Parks. I am very careful with whom I will share info with. I spend a lot of time and money locating the subjects that I photograph and no we don't own any of them, they are all out there, all anyone has to do is to find them on their own. The other option is to hire a guide to take you out and set you up for a shot but then you pay them. There are people that don't want to put in the time and people that just don't have the time and they are the people I feel for. Besides that GPS function on my camera eats up the battery and I've never had a problem getting back to the area once I've been there. This post is about "Location Sharing" and we all know where Everest is, I think. When climbing Everest you would be using Sherpa's but I don't know any photographers that can afford that luxury, we just carry our own equipment.
Truth be told your last line is pure "Balderd... (show quote)


Your said "all anyone has to do is find them on their own." So, I take it you would have no objection to someone who found the location on his own to share it with the rest of the world. After all, if you have the right to keep the location secret, that person has the right to make it public.

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Apr 30, 2018 04:45:32   #
DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX
 
He took the time and made the effort to research and plan his shoot. Why should you or anyone be entitled to his findings? I have a friend that does virtually the same thing. I do ask him sometimes and he does share when I ask him. I seem to understand when I shouldn't ask, so I don't. I never push. I have been to some of his secret spots with him and I protect his research.
wds0410 wrote:
One of the photography youtubers I follow posted the video below which basically states that he doesn't like to share locations that he photographs mostly because he feels he is protecting them from abuse (mostly trash and overuse). He shoots mostly in National Parks from what I can gather, Zion and Death Valley and maybe others.

He spends a fair amount of time researching (using whatever tools at his disposal, e.g., Google earth), hiking and scouting these locations before he actually shoots photos. He shoots 8x10 film mostly so he is lugging a fair amount of equipment on his treks.

How does everyone feel about this? Should we share or protect these locations?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkiyJB-uMsc&t=3s
One of the photography youtubers I follow posted t... (show quote)

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