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I’m Looking For The Mirrorless Cameras..., Were Are They?!?!
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Apr 21, 2018 16:23:59   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
attbay wrote:
Just login on Amazon.....

Log on to Amazon to see what?

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Apr 21, 2018 16:25:53   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
rehess wrote:
As far as I know, Nikon the company is still recovering from their recent financial issues - they have the toughest path. Sony has more MILC experience; Canon has all those wonderful EF lenses out there. I believe MILC will be the eventual "winner", but at age 70 I may not live long enough to see how it all shakes out.

Absolutely, and in 10 years maybe the majority of pros will be using Sony. MAYBE!

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Apr 21, 2018 16:41:47   #
gwilliams6
 
mwsilvers wrote:
I was not referring to mirrorless technology as a niche market. I was referring specifically to professional level Sony cameras as still a niche market due to its current market saturation. It's quite reasonable that over time Sony will become the professional market leader assuming that Canon and Nikon are unable to compete effectively in the mirrorless market. Since Sony currently has a great advantage there, Nikon and Canon have a lot of catching up to do. And if ultimately Sony's cameras are adopted by consumers and Pros because they are superior products, there's nothing wrong with that. I am not a Canon or Nikon fanboy and have no emotional attachment to either company.
I was not referring to mirrorless technology as a ... (show quote)


And mwsilvers I do not believe you meant mirrorless tech to be niche. When i read the threads here I realize for many, in their own world and personal experience, they may not see many going to mirrorless. DSLR worldwide sales are down 5-10% (depending on which numbers you believe) since last year, and have been flat or declining for a few years now. . While mirrorless sales are up 11-15% (again depending on what numbers you see). The trend is there and real. The camera, lens and accessory makers see it and are increasingly focusing their development tech and new releases to service that growing mirrorless market.

In my pro world of news ,sports, editorial and magazine shooters ,plus among my fellow university photo educators, there has been a huge swing toward pro-quality mirrorless for video and stills. Mirrorless manufacturers have taped into the need of shooters being able to do doing top-quality "fusion" work (stills plus video) all in ONE camera. Mirrorless tech has become the leader for fusion shooters. And that includes great "Fusion" mirrorless cameras from Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus too. Even the best Nikons and Canons don't do fusion as well yet. The upcoming full-frame mirrorless offerings from Nikon and Canon will surely have to do better in 4k and beyond ,than their present offerings.

Hey it is all good if you are emotional about what you love in photography. I was there with Nikon and Canon for 40 years, but then I tried a fellow pro's Sony gear and was intrigued enough to do more research and rented a few for shooting. I quickly realized that this mirrorless gear would help me create my art more easily and in new and even more creative and competitive ways. I took six months to fully transition ,and I am not sorry I did.

NO CAMERA AND CAMERA SYSTEM IS PERFECT, NONE. Certainly my Sony gear isn't perfect, and I always try to pass on to the Sony folks what I would like changed or improved. Sony has mostly listened to pros and amateurs alike, and each successive release has truly addressed most of these issues and corrected them. Sony has still more work to do to keep us going forward and cant rest on its laurels, ever. I got really frustrated and tired of half-baked (drip ,drip) improvements in releases from Canon. For my image making ,professionally and personal, mirrorless cameras have been like a fresh breath of air that I get to breath every time I shoot with them.

I am able to afford whatever gear works best for me, so if Canon had had better fullframe mirrorless tech than Sony back in January 2017, I might not have switched. I fully expect Nikon and Canon to do their best to try and catch up to Sony fullframe mirrorless leadership. The future is bright for all of us with great stuff to help us enjoy our passion for photography. Cheers and best to you, and thank you for voicing your opinions and sharing your knowledge. No one is right and another wrong here. We all want the truth and don't want any "fake news" LOL

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Apr 21, 2018 16:51:09   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
SharpShooter wrote:
Silvers, this wasn’t meant to be controversial. I was serious!! I’ve seen like two mirrorless so far but they were not credentialed shooters. I’m looking only at what the credentialed pros are shooting.
I hear a lot here about how ML is taking over but I just don’t see it anywhere.
But this is very fast moving action!!!
SS


You are one of the wittiest online personalities that I had ever come across. But do you actually believe that we would believe you when you say that?

Amongst pros, canon is number 1. But would anyone expect the majority of them to switch over to another brand like Sony just because Sony may offer something different?

Wasn’t at one point 35mm the “m4/3” of the camera world?

Just give mirrorless time. Until then, use what works for you and let others use what they prefer.

We both know that snapshot shooters wouldn’t suddenly become world class photographers if they switched in any direction. So what difference would it make to you if people sold their gear and went Canon?

On the other hand, if you read other forums besides UHH, you will see that the mirrorless membership is growing and a big majority is from canon and Nikon.

I see as many going back to dslrs as you see mirrorless in your vanues

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Apr 21, 2018 17:11:00   #
rplain1 Loc: Dayton, Oh.
 
SharpShooter wrote:
That’s right guys, I’m looking for all those mirrorless cameras and haven’t seen one yet! I’m talking about serious cameras, not little toy 4/3’s!
I’m on assignment at Laguna Seca(bicycle races) and there are 250 official photographers here. Been here two days and haven’t seen a mirrorless yet. To be honest, haven’t seen a Nikon either!!! LoL
ALL Canons and mostly 70-200’s.
So where are all those mirrorless cameras? If you know where to find them, please let all of us that never see them, know!!!?
On Sunday I shoot the dual slalom event. It has the most photographers.
Maybe I’ll see one on Sunday? Maybe!?! I’ll cross my fingers and keep you posted! LoL
SS
That’s right guys, I’m looking for all those mirro... (show quote)
They are all hiding behind the mirror - did you look there?

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Apr 21, 2018 17:29:05   #
Haydon
 
SharpShooter wrote:
Silvers, this wasn’t meant to be controversial. I was serious!! I’ve seen like two mirrorless so far but they were not credentialed shooters. I’m looking only at what the credentialed pros are shooting.
I hear a lot here about how ML is taking over but I just don’t see it anywhere.
But this is very fast moving action!!!
SS


LOL now see what you did? You have williams all fired up and we'll get another 20 pages of preaching from him about mirrorless with constant reminding of his pro status. Way to go SS :)

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Apr 21, 2018 18:00:40   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
Haydon wrote:
LOL now see what you did? You have williams all fired up and we'll get another 20 pages of preaching from him about mirrorless with constant reminding of his pro status. Way to go SS :)


LoL!!!
Why do some pros hide their work so no one can see it?!? LoL
I’d like to see what one of those ML gadgets does for him.
Oh, I forgot, can’t post pics of a client!!! LoL


And down 10% of DSLRs is 100K of one million units.
Up 10% of 100K units is 10K units.
I’m sure he’s not talking overall market share, or we would already see ONLY ml cameras!
My favorite sports lens is my 200 1.8!!! Nothing shoots like that lens, not even the Sony version!!!
SS

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Apr 21, 2018 18:18:45   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
Haydon wrote:
LOL now see what you did? You have williams all fired up and we'll get another 20 pages of preaching from him about mirrorless with constant reminding of his pro status. Way to go SS :)


He may be preaching and he may be long winded. Then again, how many of us have been nominated for a Pulitzer Prize?
How many times have we been a finalist for a Pulitzer Prize? Maybe what he has to say isn't worthwhile - and then again maybe it is worthwhile.

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Apr 21, 2018 18:25:54   #
gwilliams6
 
Use what gear you want ,need, and what works for you, and be happy. I have always, whether it was Pentax, Miranda (anyone remember them) , Leica, Nikon, Canon or Sony. . Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYEZDrpRLDQ
A Nikon shooter of 30 years switches to mirrorless and tells why, and the setup of the A7III. The menu might scare some away until you set it up and the custom buttons and custom functions to your preferences for stills and video, then you can pretty much forget it. There is a learning curve that i faced coming from Canon. but i survived.

BTW, a new professional webpage of mine is under construction . I will post in the next month or two. I had to add new hidden software (available online for a small price,) to stop my celebrity and modeling photos which were being stolen from my previous site and sold elsewhere online. The new hidden software can track them if they appear elsewhere online. I promise to post the link when I have it up. I am moving from Southern New Jersey to Grapevine, Texas next week (near Dallas/Ft.Worth) Then I am going on vacation to St. Maarten (May 19-June 2) where my timeshare is reopening after cleanup from Hurricane Irma. if you folks like, I will post some shots from there and you all can critique me. lol

Here is one of my wedding websites with photos I have edited to only include ones cleared with the clients shown.Cheers
https://www.wedding.com/wedding-vendors/nj/clayton/photographer/williams-photography/389416

I do apologize if I am longwinded and sometimes preachy here. My intentions are to always be fair and honest in all discussions, and with information and links I post. All my professional accomplishments are real. Cheers.

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Apr 21, 2018 21:51:57   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
amfoto1 wrote:
"Mirrorless, mirrorless, on the wall, who's the fairest camera of all?"

But seriously.... When it comes to sports shooting, there are a number of reasons mirrorless don't cut it.

1. By they time you hang a 70-200/2.8, 300mm or 400mm lens on the front of it, the small size and lighter weight of a mirrorless camera is more a liability, than a benefit. The diminutive camera doesn't balance well with the bigger lenses that sports shooting pros are likely to be using. it's made even worse if you also need to use an adapter, since there aren't many 70-200/2.8, 300/2.8 or 400/2.8 being made for mirrorless yet.

2. For the speed and action of sports, an optical viewfinder and a separate phase detection sensor array are still superior to an electronic viewfinder and dual pixel phase detection embedded in the imaging sensor. Even worse would be a mirrorless without any viewfinder... ever tried to shoot sports using Live View and holding the same at arms length... in bright sunlight? Rots of ruck with that, Scooby!

3. Limited lens selection (already touched on that above), especially of the types that sports photogs need and use... Nikon and Canon each have around 90 lenses in their systems (roughly 1/3 are crop only in each). Pentax and Sony... around 40 (Sony is actually less because some are A-mount, some are E-mount). Few MILC systems have more than 25 or 30 to choose among tops, and some have only 10 or fewer. Also, due to their current popularity, they also tend to be more expensive, both the MILC itself and the lenses to designed for use upon it, when compared to the most comparable DSLR gear.

For example, Sony is seeking to compete with pro-grade cameras that are up to the task.... bBut so far has only three lenses in E-mount that are remotely "sports oriented": two 70-200s and a 100-400mm. Where are the 300/2.8, 400/2.8, 500/4 and 600/4 we see on the sidelines at the Super Bowl? Okay, Sony's got 300/2.8 and 500/4... in A-mount, that can be used on their MILC with an adapter. In comparison.... for pro sports shooters Canon's got four 70-200s, 100-400, two 300mm, three 400mm, 500mm, 600mm, 800mm, plus a 200-400 with a built-in/matched 1.4X. Nikon has a similar range to choose among (some differences: 80-400 & 200-500, instead of 100-400... only two 70-200s... and their 200-400 doesn't have a built in TC). Fourteen or fifteen lenses with Nikon or Canon... versus five in the Sony line (two of which require adapters to be used on their MILC).

4. Also, tiny cameras mean tiny batteries with very limited shots-per-charge... and there are few accessories such as battery grips to help the situation. I use a grip on my DLSRs that allow me to get around 2500 shots with a pair of batteries. And some day's shooting an 8 or 10 hour event I shoot more than that and need to swap batteries once. Many MILC only get 600, 500, 400 or even 300 shots per charge. It takes "juice" to run those electronic viewfinders and LCD screens (the screen on my DSLR is turned off... I only see image reviews on demand, to save power). With many MILC I'd be changing batteries 4 to 6 times in a day's shoot! (P.S. I looked for info about shots per charge for the Sony batteries, but can't find any.... Both Canon and Nikon list CIPA standard battery test results for their cameras, which I can beat by a large margin with some simple power saving tricks.)

5. Battery grips also provide a secondary set of controls for vertical orientation. If you shoot a lot of vertical/portrait oriented shots, it's a lot more comfortable than continually "twisting" your wrist to get the shot. I'd estimate about half my shots are horiz., half vert. Someone shooting for a print magazine might take a lot more verticals. There simply aren't many vertical/battery grips available for MILC yet. Fujifilm makes a really nice one... for one of their camera models. Sony makes a nice one too... for their full frame camera. It costs $50 to $100 more than the most expensive Canon battery grips. As far as I can tell, Sony doesn't make one for their APS-C camera (the format I prefer to shoot sports), but Vello does? (3rd party... lower cost... but build quality? reliability? durability?)

6. In general, with a few exceptions, MILC are simply more amateur to advanced amateur-oriented... so far. Manufacturers have treated them more as a "step up" from point n shoot, but below mid-grade, pro-grade DSLRs. More automation, less direct access to the camera controls that pros tend to want and use. Canon sure did with their M-series, but appears to have begun changing that. So did Nikon and Pentax with their essentially failed MILC lines. They were probably all paranoid about eroding their own DSLR sales (which happened anyway, just to other brands instead.) Sony, Fuji, Oly and Panasonic all treated at least some their MILC models more seriously. Still, especially on the smaller MILC, there's limited "real estate"... not a lot of room for all the buttons and dials that a pro-grade camera typically uses. I've heard and read more than one MILC user complain about too small controls that are easy to miss or mistake. A sports shooter is often making adjustments by touch and familiarity with the controls, while keeping their eye to the viewfinder. That would be hard to do with some MILC.

7. As new people move into the field of sports photography and the manufacturers make more pro-oriented models and expand their MILC-specific lens lines, I'm sure we'll see more folks using them now that they offer AF performance and other features that are necessary. But seasoned pros aren't quick to jump brands (unless someone else is paying for their gear... an employer or a sponsor). They have a lot of money invested... not to mention the learning curve of any new system. Pro sports shooters often have to react instantly and the ability to do that only comes with a lot of familiarity with thei gear. Switching brands means "starting over", in a lot of ways. And it can be very expensive!

Besides, we're stubborn curmudgeons who don't like all that new fangled stuff!

Actually, I think MILC are cool and really want one... for some things (street photography, travel, vintage manual focus lenses). But SPORTS is NOT one of them. I'll keep my DSLRs for that. The MILC I'll get will be more for fun... so it's not gotten high priority.
"Mirrorless, mirrorless, on the wall, who's t... (show quote)

I believe Olympus and Panasonic have about 95 Lens interchangeably between them! Are you a pro

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Apr 22, 2018 03:38:37   #
Dennis833 Loc: Australia
 
All the mirrorless cameras are out photographing something else, like landscapes. You want see them at bicycle races.

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Apr 22, 2018 05:02:13   #
RWR Loc: La Mesa, CA
 
SharpShooter wrote:
That’s right guys, I’m looking for all those mirrorless cameras and haven’t seen one yet! I’m talking about serious cameras, not little toy 4/3’s!
I’m on assignment at Laguna Seca(bicycle races) and there are 250 official photographers here. Been here two days and haven’t seen a mirrorless yet. To be honest, haven’t seen a Nikon either!!! LoL
ALL Canons and mostly 70-200’s.
So where are all those mirrorless cameras? If you know where to find them, please let all of us that never see them, know!!!?
On Sunday I shoot the dual slalom event. It has the most photographers.
Maybe I’ll see one on Sunday? Maybe!?! I’ll cross my fingers and keep you posted! LoL
SS
That’s right guys, I’m looking for all those mirro... (show quote)

Try Disneyland, Legoland, the zoo ...

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Apr 22, 2018 05:21:38   #
Winslowe
 
If Walgreens starts selling them, they'll be next to the Geritol!

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Apr 22, 2018 07:40:25   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Winslowe wrote:
If Walgreens starts selling them, they'll be next to the Geritol!

MILC? I don't understand your comment. You need to use 'Quote Reply' to provide context. We old guys, who have been using (D)SLR for thirty or more years, seem to be most attached to the mirrored cameras.

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Apr 22, 2018 15:13:31   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
RWR wrote:
Try Disneyland, Legoland, the zoo ...


Germany, England, Italy, Greece, Croatia, Switzerland, French Polynesia, Hawaii, Alaska, etc.

Also as a personal carry-on, not a baggage carry-on.

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