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before or after ? fix it in post?
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Feb 26, 2018 12:25:13   #
chasgroh Loc: Buena Park, CA
 
via the lens wrote:
We seem to be in a recycle phase, as this question has been asked and answered many times. If I were only shooting for yearbooks I'd shoot jpeg and I'd get it right every time. But I shoot a lot more than yearbooks and I like my work to be all it can be. So, I do a lot more. I create mood, tone, atmosphere in processing; I clean up yucky stuff in the water; I clean up the animals; I even put the tips of feathers back on birds; I change skies as needed; I make trees longer in some cases; I do HDR and Panos, the list is endless. I make art, not school pictures.
We seem to be in a recycle phase, as this question... (show quote)


...laconic and to the point. Bravo.

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Feb 26, 2018 12:25:14   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
rehess wrote:
One's goals are paramount here. I've never claimed to be an artist.
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-458973-1.html

Instead, for over fifty years I have been functioning as a documentarion, recording my world as it is today, before tomorrow comes and everything changes. As such, I choose to follow procedures such as those used by news reporters and those recording the Olympics; achieving what you view as 'best' may violate those standards, so it would not be 'best' for me. I don't have prints hanging on walls, including my own, but I do have had an image accepted by a historical society for their files. Under these standards, I do make use of the full potential of the camera to achieve my goals.
One's goals are paramount here. I've never claimed... (show quote)


I try not to limit myself or my images in that fashion. But everyone's mileage is different. I too make use of the full potential of my camera gear. But we obviously have very different outcomes.

I heard a great presentation by Gerry Van der Walt in which he described four stages of photography - Proof, Documentary, Narrative and Creative. Proof is taking the shot just to show you were there. Documentary is taking a picture that is technically accurate - camera settings and composition, narrative is when your image tells a story with it's element, and creative is when you take risks and do things out of the ordinary - like shooting a cheetah running past with a shutter speed of 1/30 sec. He describes the last stage as one that elicits the same feeling in the viewer that the photographer felt when he/she took the image. The last stage is for me the most challenging, having been a documentarian in my professional work and for most of my 51 yrs as a photographer. But now I've decided to step up to the challenge and go way outside the box to create some memorable imagery. Not sure how successful I'll be, but I am sure going to enjoy the journey.

http://www.gerryvanderwalt.com/

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Feb 26, 2018 12:54:57   #
ORpilot Loc: Prineville, Or
 
wilsondl2 wrote:
I seldom fix anything in post. I think that many who shot film for many years just can't program themselves to fix it in post. Now what I see is the problem - Going manual and shooting RAW. Many beginners shoot manual when they don't have the any idea of what they are doing and then since they are shooting in RAW they can fix it in post. Just my Not So Humble Opinion. - dave



πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»
Haveing a BFA and MFA in photography and been teaching photography for over 30 years I am the same way. I shoot it right and it requires little or no post processing. There are too many "photographers" out there that are spray shooters. That is: they let the camera shoot 20 seconds of shots in bracket mode and then do tons of post processing. They are just equipment operators and not true photographers. Back in 1999, I was picking up some extra money doing shipping for a small mail order company. They were in the process of shooting their Christmas catalog. They had hired a recent college graduate that was a computer wiz to do the catalog. He was spending 2 minutes shooting the product (small items on a table top) and then anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour on each shot in post processing. I mentioned this loss of efficiency to the owner. I told him that I could fix it so that I could do 10 times the production that his high priced geek could do. The challenge was on. Next day I brought in my studio equipment and did ten product shots in less than an hour that required no post processing. You should have seen the look on the Geeks face after I was done. I got promoted from minimum wage to a respectable wage and finished the Christmas Catalog shoot. Moral of the story: use the right tool for the job and know your equipment. Do it right in the beginning and save time and effort.

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Feb 26, 2018 13:02:19   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
I try not to limit myself or my images in that fashion. But everyone's mileage is different. I too make use of the full potential of my camera gear. But we obviously have very different outcomes.

I heard a great presentation by Gerry Van der Walt in which he described four stages of photography - Proof, Documentary, Narrative and Creative. Proof is taking the shot just to show you were there. Documentary is taking a picture that is technically accurate - camera settings and composition, narrative is when your image tells a story with it's element, and creative is when you take risks and do things out of the ordinary - like shooting a cheetah running past with a shutter speed of 1/30 sec. He describes the last stage as one that elicits the same feeling in the viewer that the photographer felt when he/she took the image. The last stage is for me the most challenging, having been a documentarian in my professional work and for most of my 51 yrs as a photographer. But now I've decided to step up to the challenge and go way outside the box to create some memorable imagery. Not sure how successful I'll be, but I am sure going to enjoy the journey.

http://www.gerryvanderwalt.com/
I try not to limit myself or my images in that fas... (show quote)

The short version of my story is as follows: In 1967, the spring of my sophomore year of college, I decided to "save my world" - not the way many of my classmates were behaving, but on film. I've had a great time at it ever since!!

added: there is a railroad station in Westmont Illinois which has had four buildings during my lifetime. I need to go there someday to photograph the latest one, and rescan my negative of the picture I took in 1968 with a box camera of the first one, and then I'll be ready to do another "Sense of Time" piece.

http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-416539-1.html

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Feb 26, 2018 13:07:42   #
drklrd Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
 
ORpilot wrote:
πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»
Haveing a BFA and MFA in photography and been teaching photography for over 30 years I am the same way. I shoot it right and it requires little or no post processing. There are too many "photographers" out there that are spray shooters. That is: they let the camera shoot 20 seconds of shots in bracket mode and then do tons of post processing. They are just equipment operators and not true photographers. Back in 1999, I was picking up some extra money doing shipping for a small mail order company. They were in the process of shooting their Christmas catalog. They had hired a recent college graduate that was a computer wiz to do the catalog. He was spending 2 minutes shooting the product (small items on a table top) and then anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour on each shot in post processing. I mentioned this loss of efficiency to the owner. I told him that I could fix it so that I could do 10 times the production that his high priced geek could do. The challenge was on. Next day I brought in my studio equipment and did ten product shots in less than an hour that required no post processing. You should have seen the look on the Geeks face after I was done. I got promoted from minimum wage to a respectable wage and finished the Christmas Catalog shoot. Moral of the story: use the right tool for the job and know your equipment. Do it right in the beginning and save time and effort.
πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ» br Haveing a BFA and MFA in photograp... (show quote)


This is what I try to stress to all. You need to get the basics first then the rest will better everything. I have been to sports events and spoken with the Mom or Dad or Uncle just to pass the time during half time activities when there where no activities. They had their cameras and some were quite expensive Nikons all on automatic and wonder why their shots aren't like mine. I tell them read the manual and take the camera off auto. Showing them how to sometimes. They love the improvements. Then there are the ones who ask nothing and you hear the motors cranking at high speed next to you. I just wonder why so many shots for that perfect shot are required. My Nikon never runs at high speed and at low speed it just a shot or 3 is all I need.

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Feb 26, 2018 13:11:21   #
frankie c Loc: Lake Havasu CIty, AZ
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
I submit that because the OP finds the practice of pp "fixing" irritating and inexplicable, he/she is "seeing" more instances than actually exist. You know how something can get under your skin and appear to be more of a problem than it really is?

However, the vast majority of UHH users are hobbyists and many are casual snapshot shooters. Some don't have enough experience - or guidance from more experienced photographers - to even be aware that some of their exposures or other mistakes are a "problem," let alone how to prevent them.

Wouldn't it be great if once a month UHH members who feel the need to frequently complain and criticize, would instead post a positive topic? A personal story of inspiration, photos that blow us away with their creativity and/or technical perfection, an offer to mentor a newbie? Too much to ask?
I submit that because the OP finds the practice of... (show quote)


Hmmm... is it to much to ask? PROLLY :) nice thought though. How you doin?

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Feb 26, 2018 14:54:14   #
photoman022 Loc: Manchester CT USA
 
Bill_de wrote:
There is a difference between 'fixing' in post and 'editing for effect' in post. For those who enjoy post processing, raw provides a huge canvas to produce what they saw in their mind that could not be produced in camera.

For those who have to 'fix' in post all the time, maybe they need more practice or mentoring.

--


there are times that I will deliberately underexpose my landscapes, exposing for the sky. I will use that RAW image and process it multiple times in Adobe Camera RAW, and combine the images for an HDR effect. My goal is to get the effect I want right in camera and then work from there. Do I fix it in post? Yes, but that was the plan all the long, otherwise I would have a blown out sky. Other times I will take photos of dull skies knowing that I will replace the sky in pp. Is that cheating? Yes, but it gives me the image I want.

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Feb 26, 2018 14:58:01   #
Kiwi1 Loc: New Zealand
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
It all depends on what you do, what you want to do and if your are willing to do it right OR if you HAVE to to it right!... Or not?!

If you are a β€œsnap-shooter” , there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Lord knows, with any decent digital camera and today's automation, you can produce reasonably or even surprisingly good images, view them on your monitor or paste them in you album and enjoy them.

If you are a serious enthusiast and are a stickler for quality and artistically created imagery, I assume you are interested in the technicalities of creating superior images and operating your camera in a crafts-person-like manner. You will want to shoot properly and precisely, making non-problematic files and then processes them to maximize their potential. There is no different in this approach to digital photography as there was to making good negatives or transparencies during the film era and things, nowadays, are a heck of a lot more convenient.

If you are a professional photographer, what with client demands, deadlines to meet and the requirement for top quality results on time, sloppy or erratic shooting and complex post processing with layers of remedial procedures is NOT AN OPTION. Having to β€œre-shoot” each assignment in the computer is tedious, disproportionately painstaking and time consuming and uneconomical. It can result in poor quality and it is definitely bad business.

It is best, when circumstances permit, do as much image management in the camera as possible- exposure, perspective, composition, focus, issues of contrast and range, application of lighting and light quality and attention to detail. Post processing should be employed to tweak or enhance any of the aforementioned elements and apply any special effects or aesthetic retouching.

In many situations, in advanced and professional photography, there is enough time to work carefully and precisely. There are also many β€œgun and run” circumstances and difficult conditions that photographs have to contend with. Experienced shooters learn to work precisely under stressful conditions and limited time frames, but even under controlled conditions, nobody is invincible so it is good to know that there are extreme fixes that can bail us out.- I just don't like to make a habit of it!

There are so many ongoing arguments and philosophies about the validity of posts processing, image manipulation, portrait retouching, so called β€œpure photography” or realism vs. artistic impression. I feel that these arguments are a waste of time- time that would be better spent making the kind of photographs that you want to produce for you personal edification or the needs of you clients. Photography is an art and a science. There are β€œlaws” but they are not legalities, they are just the laws of optics, chemistry and physics- we are kinda stuck with them. There are β€œrules” but they are rules of thumb and formulas that can be adhered to for reliable or consistent results or broken for creative, inventive or innovative results. At the end of the day, we are all image makers. The proof of your technique will be in your imagery.

My assessment of any post processing procedure is simple. If whatever you did calls attention to itself or results in inferior quality, it is unsuccessful. If the image you create shines and tells the story you want to tell or expresses your artistic interpretation and impacts the viewers in the way in which you intended- you are doing OK! If you are a pro- you've gotta produce the goods so that you can get paid!
It all depends on what you do, what you want to do... (show quote)


Yes as always EL a great answer. For those of us that care it is about good workflow practice. Best practice should start with doing the best we can in camera and then that should minimise what needs to be done in post. Creativity in post is an entirely different matter. If you built a house you take the upmost care with set out and foundation is square etc as everything after depends on that care and attention. The thing is unlike film days we now have so many ways to check in the field or on the spot instant image recall with enlargment to check focus point, histograms, exposure bracketing, HDR to name a few. We have way fewer excuses not to be getting it right in camera. I can guarantee 10 min more thinking (adding brain) with the camera in hand will always be worth way more than 10 min in post like I said excluding creativity in post. It is surprising how many photographers dont really look at what is in the viewfinder in front of them in particular background details like trees growing out of heads. I read over the weekend one of the National Geographic photographers takes on average 90 shots and only the last 1 or 2 are ever seen. He is constantly changing position to get different composition , can't do that in post. Unless you learn from post how to improve technique with the camera your are not really going to become a better photographer period.

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Feb 26, 2018 15:04:07   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
ORpilot wrote:
πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»
Haveing a BFA and MFA in photography and been teaching photography for over 30 years I am the same way. I shoot it right and it requires little or no post processing. There are too many "photographers" out there that are spray shooters. That is: they let the camera shoot 20 seconds of shots in bracket mode and then do tons of post processing. They are just equipment operators and not true photographers. Back in 1999, I was picking up some extra money doing shipping for a small mail order company. They were in the process of shooting their Christmas catalog. They had hired a recent college graduate that was a computer wiz to do the catalog. He was spending 2 minutes shooting the product (small items on a table top) and then anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour on each shot in post processing. I mentioned this loss of efficiency to the owner. I told him that I could fix it so that I could do 10 times the production that his high priced geek could do. The challenge was on. Next day I brought in my studio equipment and did ten product shots in less than an hour that required no post processing. You should have seen the look on the Geeks face after I was done. I got promoted from minimum wage to a respectable wage and finished the Christmas Catalog shoot. Moral of the story: use the right tool for the job and know your equipment. Do it right in the beginning and save time and effort.
πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ» br Haveing a BFA and MFA in photograp... (show quote)


Whether or not a shot 'requires' post processing is a matter of opinion. No shot requires anything; some just choose to do it.

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Feb 26, 2018 15:07:40   #
TheDman Loc: USA
 
photoman022 wrote:
there are times that I will deliberately underexpose my landscapes, exposing for the sky. I will use that RAW image and process it multiple times in Adobe Camera RAW, and combine the images for an HDR effect. My goal is to get the effect I want right in camera and then work from there. Do I fix it in post? Yes, but that was the plan all the long, otherwise I would have a blown out sky. Other times I will take photos of dull skies knowing that I will replace the sky in pp. Is that cheating? Yes, but it gives me the image I want.
img src="https://static.uglyhedgehog.com/images/s... (show quote)


You're doing the same thing Eadweard Muybridge and Carleton Watkins did back in the 1860s. If it's 'cheating', then cheating has been going on since before film was invented.

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Feb 26, 2018 16:11:15   #
terry44 Loc: Tuolumne County California, Maui Hawaii
 
Here is a link to the Negative you can also find many more books on Adams and others and you will see that pp has always been around and used by photographers https://archive.org/details/The_Negative
wilsondl2 wrote:
If Adams did so much PP show some examples other than the "Moonscape" that he did a lot of PP on. JUst a little dodging and burning in on most. - dave

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Feb 26, 2018 16:26:56   #
blackest Loc: Ireland
 
why not both , in camera you are trying to take as good a photograph as possible, in post you are trying to make it better. Stop where ever you want.

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Feb 26, 2018 17:23:46   #
steve_stoneblossom Loc: Rhode Island, USA
 
blackest wrote:
why not both , in camera you are trying to take as good a photograph as possible, in post you are trying to make it better. Stop where ever you want.



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Feb 26, 2018 17:26:41   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
"Fix it in post" implies errors by photographers that need to be fixed. "Enhance" is more accurate to what knowledgeable photographers do in post. images can often be improved in post even if they were the best they could be out of the camera. Often this involves selective enhancement of different areas of the image using masks and layers. That can't be done in the camera, except maybe with split ND filters.

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Feb 26, 2018 17:30:16   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
drklrd wrote:
Why are there so many out there just fixing it in post? I wonder if the shot good negatives when there was film. We now have a digital world and all I hear is fix it in post. Should we not never ever get a great shot in the first place? I say best shot in camera and only if needed fix it in post. My video camera days in college taught me get the shot right the first time and you never have to fix it in post. I was also taught post is where you can add all the effects and special stuff to images you made right the first time. Working as a pro wedding photographer the studio wanted it done right without post help. So why shoot the image with fixing it in post later a main theme here on UHH? Top photographers I studied under said get it right the first time because we cannot go back and shoot it again.
I do yearbook stuff like I did in film days for extra cash since I retired. I shoot jpeg's a lot because that is all the yearbooks need and if need be you can open and fix them in Adobe Camera RAW somewhat. So I make sure all my exposures are good the first time with little or no post needed.
Why are there so many out there just fixing it in ... (show quote)


Apparently it all depends on what you want and what you're willing to accept. I've posted this url several times. Guess it won't hurt to post it again. It's worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBF1i8t8Skw

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