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Electric Car Article
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Jan 26, 2018 14:45:21   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
Yes, there are always nay sayers to anything new. But if you look at thr nay are you not reading a problem that needs a solution. Do not designers of anything new examine every negative to hone the design.


rmorrison1116 wrote:
Some folks just have to find fault in anything new. We have to start somewhere and develop new technologies to maturity. Eventually the benefits justify and outweigh the cost. Remember, the future starts in the present.

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Jan 27, 2018 06:21:37   #
John N Loc: HP14 3QF Stokenchurch, UK
 
Not dissimilar to the arguments here, though I had discounted the need to upgrade the distribution network. Many new offices and out of town stores are now fitted with charging points but in my opinion nowhere near sufficient should, for example, 25% of the population be driving electric vehicles.

But the biggest holdback on electric vehicles is the battery. Once a standard battery pack is developed that could be changed at a service station is developed and used by all manufacturers then we'll see a leap forward. A 250-mile electric range will be acceptable if the battery can be changed over in say 20 minutes whilst you use the rest facilities. Let's face it, you put the same fuel in your car whether it's a FORD or some other manufacturer, if the battery is the fuel should it not fit all vehicles?

A cassette arrangement would allow for bigger and smaller models - just as different sized fuel tanks do today.

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Jan 27, 2018 08:39:10   #
dpfoto Loc: Cape Coral, FL
 
There's also the cost to replace the battery pack when the batteries wear out. I have a friend who had to pay over $4,000 when it came time to replace the battery pack in his Toyota Prius.

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Jan 27, 2018 09:30:39   #
fourlocks Loc: Londonderry, NH
 
Neilhunt wrote:
There are a few misconceptions in this article...

On Infrastructure: Tesla can use a 75A drop, but it's perfectly serviceable at 30, which is the same as your tumble drier. And it's pretty easy to avoid tumble drying while you are charging, so most houses are adequately set. Secondly, the total of all the loads in the typical home is likely to exceed 100A - you just don't use them all the time. And finally, it's normal to set your EV to charge in the middle of the night, when there is lots of surplus power from the grid. So called "base power" generation can't be turned on and off during the day, and in the middle of the night, it's either used, or dumped. In fact, the real marginal cost of that power could be negative (it's cheaper to use it to charge your car than to dump it into heat).

On cost: Those Volt numbers don't make a lot of sense. A 16kWh battery is good for at least 48 miles, perhaps 64. Likely the Volt is switching to hybrid mode either because it has reached the freeway and the electric is not intended for 60mph driving (depending upon the model year), or because it is reserving some juice for surface streets later.

A Tesla gets about 3m/kWh, Leaf and smaller cars get about 4m/kWh. In most of the country, a kWh is about $.08-$.14, but if you have time-of-day metering, it could be as low as $.02. Even at $.14, that's only $.03-$.05 per mile - compared to $3/25 = $.12 for a typical gasoline car. If the OP is paying $1.16/kWh, he could be factoring in the fixed monthly cost of the connection and meter, which does not increase as you use more electricity. Or he could be a very unfortunately customer of a gouging utility. The fixed cost of a solar installation translates to much lower than $1 a kWh amortized over even a short 3-5 years, given some reasonable assumptions on how much power is used (or sold back to the utility).

On gas tax: This will be controversial - but I think you can demonstrate that the gas tax to fund roads is much less than the various subsidies on gasoline that the government pays. Now there are potentially rebates on EVs, so there is lots of material to argue about.

Benefits not enumerated in the original post:
* Other maintenance costs are super low. Just about tires only. I haven't taken my Leaf to the shop for 3 years.
* Silent. In urban areas, the exteralized cost of ICE noise is material, and the EV is a great deal more quiet.
* Fun. The torque from even a basic Leaf beats, for example, a turbocharged Juke (roughly the same sized and weight of car with a souped up 200hp ICE).
* Other emissions: CO2, NO, particulates - the EV emits no CO2, NO, or particulates. Yes, if it's charged from the grid, the grid power gen might emit some of those things, but at less than half the quantity of the equivalent ICE -- and since the emissions are centralized, it's much easier to scrub them (the scrubbers can be industrial sized, and don't have to be towed around the roads).
* Rare minerals. No platinum catalytic converters. While an EV has lots of lithium in its battery, lithium is quite common, relatively easily recycled. EVs today use rare earth magnet motors; I believe as volume ramps, we will see a switch to synchronous AC induction motors, with no permanent magnets.

And now - back to photography... Where at least, for most of us, we aren't struggling to figure out what to do with silver halides...
There are a few misconceptions in this article... ... (show quote)



I worked in our State EPA's Air Division; Mobile Sources Section, where we were always looking for and promoting technologies to reduce air emissions. Since private fossil fuel vehicles are the single largest emissions sector (far more than industry or power plants), any improvement to reduce gasoline or diesel fuel makes a huge environmental impact. In addition to the other educated responses let me add:

1. The average NH resident drives about 30 miles per day making even the poorest ranged Electric Vehicle (with about a 100 mile range between charges) acceptable. The vast majority of EV owners recharge their batteries overnight so a slow recharge time doesn't matter even if using a standard home 120 or 220 volt outlet.

2. On a long trip, "range anxiety" is an issue when a driver is concerned he'll "run out of gas" before making it to the next charging station. Several states have developed what they call "Electric Highways" with charging stations positioned close enough that an EV owner can drive from Washington, through Oregon, to southern California without ever having to worry about range anxiety. Believe it or not, there are hundreds of public charging stations across the U.S. and plenty of apps and maps locating them. Electric Vehicle (EV) owners are very savvy about this and know where they can recharge, on a trip.

3. Yes, electricity for EVs must be generated from a potentially pollution-emitting power station. However, all electricity from the grid is generated by a mix of coal, oil, hydro, nuclear, natural gas, wind and solar panel sources. Here in New England only about 11% of our electricity is generated from pollutive coal plants.

4. The real solution to slow charging (20 minutes to many hours, depending on recharge voltage) is to switch from batteries, to extremely powerful capacitors that recharge within a few minutes. EV manufacturers are working on this. The downside to both batteries and capacitors, is emergency responders extracting a driver or passenger in an accident. Responders must be specially trained so they don't accidentally short-circuit the electric power source.

5. EV manufacturers warranty batteries for something like 80,000 miles giving a free battery replacement under warranty.

Electric vehicles offer many, many advantages over gas vehicles except for purchase price. If I could afford a Tesla, I'd buy one tomorrow but my next car will at least be a pre-owned electric.

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Jan 27, 2018 10:36:50   #
mr spock Loc: Fairfield CT
 
This may be a silly question but How do we dispose of the millions of car batteries down the road that canโ€™t be recharged any longer?
Throw them into a landfill?

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Jan 27, 2018 10:36:55   #
egegikbob
 
Interesting BUT! If electric cars are so efficient, so exhaust clean, so cheap to maintain, so cheap to operate.....then why are they being subsidized by both the US and many State governments? The deeper look is.....a majority are bought and owned by people who have $$$$. While the rest of us provide the cash through taxes for the subsidies. Start by removing ALL the government cash rebates, and the electric Co rate reductions......then observe the real economic picture. Some short concerns. 1) Quiet? yes so quiet the vision handicapped cannot tell an electric car is passing thru a PEX crossing. 2) Fuel tax for roads? Last time I drove there were at least 50x more lite cars vs big trucks. Why not charge MORE for electric power to the electric car users to help pay for the road upkeep? 3)Winter? when the temps are down and the daylight is short....part of the battery is used to keep you WARM and HEADLIGHTS...MPKw effect? 3) Vehicle Maintenance? I own two cars one with 150,000 miles the other with 120,000 miles. When the usage for you new electric car reach those numbers we can compare maintenance bills. 4) Emissions? The EPA just slapped the hands of VW for NOx emissions for their diesel cars (42+MPG). What is the largest source of NOx? Power plants. Just because the pollution is not at your personal tail pipe...you are still guilty. 5) Major power interruptions? rain, snow, sleet, earth quakes, tornados, hurricanes, mudslides stop electric power supplies (many times for weeks) at your home...try filling up your electric car. Bottom line.....the technology should not be forced. Electric cars along with subsidized solar panels along with bird killing wind generators will have their day when the technology makes economic sense. To try & force it before that happens is poor use of anyone's limited cash resources.

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Jan 27, 2018 10:39:57   #
twowindsbear
 
lamiaceae wrote:
Glad someone else figured that out. I'm not an engineer, but I am a biologist and had thought of most of those things myself. I'd like to see an alternative for the gasoline engine, but the electric car has a long way to go. The "car part" of a all Electric or a Hybrid car is more or less workable now, but the infrastructure in not. Solar and Wind power are the closest to a "free lunch". To charge a plug-in one uses electric power generated from some other source, Wind, Solar, Nuclear (bad in my opinion), Fuel Oil (bad), Coal (really bad), Hydro-Electric (dammed water - OK), Tidal (possible), Geothermal (possible). But for the hundreds of millions of vehicles in the U.S. alone we would need a huge increase in the available power (to the grid). In sunnier places I do see solar panels for electric car charging. But it is only a few. Most likely we will end up with multiple (partial) solutions. I'd like to see both Hydrogen - Oxygen Fuel Cell Electrics and Hydrogen Burning Internal Combustion Engines. The only waste from these is water.
Glad someone else figured that out. I'm not an en... (show quote)


I'm really curious, how is hydrogen commercially produced? I know water can be 'cracked' into hydrogen and oxygen. And I've read that hydrogen can be stripped from the carbon in methane or other hydrocarbons. How much energy is required compared to how much energy would be availabe from the hydrogen?

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Jan 27, 2018 10:49:22   #
mr spock Loc: Fairfield CT
 
egegikbob wrote:
Interesting BUT! If electric cars are so efficient, so exhaust clean, so cheap to maintain, so cheap to operate.....then why are they being subsidized by both the US and many State governments? The deeper look is.....a majority are bought and owned by people who have $$$$. While the rest of us provide the cash through taxes for the subsidies. Start by removing ALL the government cash rebates, and the electric Co rate reductions......then observe the real economic picture. Some short concerns. 1) Quiet? yes so quiet the vision handicapped cannot tell an electric car is passing thru a PEX crossing. 2) Fuel tax for roads? Last time I drove there were at least 50x more lite cars vs big trucks. Why not charge MORE for electric power to the electric car users to help pay for the road upkeep? 3)Winter? when the temps are down and the daylight is short....part of the battery is used to keep you WARM and HEADLIGHTS...MPKw effect? 3) Vehicle Maintenance? I own two cars one with 150,000 miles the other with 120,000 miles. When the usage for you new electric car reach those numbers we can compare maintenance bills. 4) Emissions? The EPA just slapped the hands of VW for NOx emissions for their diesel cars (42+MPG). What is the largest source of NOx? Power plants. Just because the pollution is not at your personal tail pipe...you are still guilty. 5) Major power interruptions? rain, snow, sleet, earth quakes, tornados, hurricanes, mudslides stop electric power supplies (many times for weeks) at your home...try filling up your electric car. Bottom line.....the technology should not be forced. Electric cars along with subsidized solar panels along with bird killing wind generators will have their day when the technology makes economic sense. To try & force it before that happens is poor use of anyone's limited cash resources.
Interesting BUT! If electric cars are so efficien... (show quote)


Great points!

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Jan 27, 2018 11:08:24   #
Bmarsh Loc: Bellaire, MI
 
egegikbob wrote:
Interesting BUT! If electric cars are so efficient, so exhaust clean, so cheap to maintain, so cheap to operate.....then why are they being subsidized by both the US and many State governments?


๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

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Jan 27, 2018 11:23:43   #
rvharvey Loc: Southern New Jersey
 
My thoughts on this are as follows:

Get a sailboat! They use renewable energy and need close to no maintenance for the vehicle and nothing for maintaining roads and bridges. There are of course places that are not near the water, but who wants to go there? 78% of the world is water, where only boats can travel and there are few if any tolls. If you want an electric car, go to Harbor Freight and buy a few solar panels to charge the batteries.

Old Salt

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Jan 27, 2018 11:29:47   #
CaptainBobBrown
 
If we're talking externalities of electric v. fossil fuel don't forget the cost of getting and keeping access to fossil fuel all over the world. Take about 50% of U.S. defense budget, cost of maintaining "freedom of navigation" in narrow waterways in middle east (e.g. Hormuz Straits, Bosperous), and remediation of areas made uninhabitable by fossil fuel extraction, spills, etc. If you want to talk about hidden costs (i.e. externalities of carbon pollution don't forget increasingly severe weather events due to warming seas, loss of polar sea ice and glaciers, desertification due to changing ocean currents from changing jet stream vectors, etc. You can sniff "Chinese hoax" unless you live in one of low lying coastal areas where your insurance costs are going through the remaining roofs and tax payer subsidies of flood insurance are becoming so huge private market can't provide realistic insurance for next major flooding events. Our fossil fuel market pricing mechanism is hugely distorted by tax payer subsidies. Estimates of actual costs to society from ground to consumption range from $10 to $50/gallon for liquids and for coal equivalent pricing is even higher. By the way, all my camera equipment is electric too.

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Jan 27, 2018 12:04:17   #
lbrande
 
When there is an electric vehicle that allows me to drive from LA to Colorado or Boston with only a 15 minute stop every 350 miles, I'll consider an vehicle with alternative energy. Right now, hours to charge a vehicle is a non-starter. Also consider that the majority of EVs being sold do not have the cargo capacity and the unrefueled range as my Volvo wagon.

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Jan 27, 2018 12:11:04   #
fourlocks Loc: Londonderry, NH
 
mr spock wrote:
This may be a silly question but How do we dispose of the millions of car batteries down the road that canโ€™t be recharged any longer?
Throw them into a landfill?


All car batteries, even the old lead-acids are easily recycled. Our town recycling center accepts them for free as will any automotive store or store that sells batteries.

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Jan 27, 2018 12:20:18   #
fourlocks Loc: Londonderry, NH
 
lbrande wrote:
When there is an electric vehicle that allows me to drive from LA to Colorado or Boston with only a 15 minute stop every 350 miles, I'll consider an vehicle with alternative energy. Right now, hours to charge a vehicle is a non-starter. Also consider that the majority of EVs being sold do not have the cargo capacity and the unrefueled range as my Volvo wagon.


Yeah, I'll concede these points. EVs are really around-town or commuting vehicles, for the most part. If EV high-discharge capacitor systems ever get perfected they'll recharge in the same time as a gasoline fill up but they're a ways off. If one looks only at a direct, gas vehicle to electric vehicle comparison, EVs come up short but there's more to owning an EV than that. EV owners are willing to overlook recharge time and driving range because of the other benefits an EV offers, especially its environmental benefits. As someone else pointed out, when you do a full lifecycle analysis between electricity and gasoline, gasoline comes up short.

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Jan 27, 2018 12:29:25   #
bpulv Loc: Buena Park, CA
 
John_F wrote:
Got this in email from a conservative.

As an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology. However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited. A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article. Bill

ONE OTHER QUESTION. IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE! In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car: Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to. Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper. At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious. If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded. This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug. If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening. Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph. According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus. So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

--
Got this in email from a conservative. br br As a... (show quote)


You forgot one other major expense of an electric vehicle; battery replacement. Batteries do not have an infinite lifespan. They can only be charged and drained a finite number of times and have a limited shelf life regardless of the technology. That means that at some point they must be replaced at a very high cost.

So let's say you pay the thousands of dollars to replace your car's batteries. What happens to the old batteries? They must be recycled or disposed of as toxic waste. Manufacturing or recycling batteries uses energy and generates pollution in one form or another. YOU CAN'T WIN!

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