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Dec 23, 2017 06:15:29   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
geodowns wrote:
Let's open another can of worms to rant on. Way back for 50+ years the only camera I had was a Nikon Ftn, all manual everything. You had to know your stuff, you had to be quick, focus, click... with no previews of your shot to look at. You had a box of filters for every occasions, than you were at the mercy of the lab to do a good job or do it yourself, print it yourself, fix it yourself. Now even a $5000 camera can point and shot. Times have change. I feel like an old fighter pilot with all the glory story's in the past. Young wepersnapers don't have a clue what its like to really be good with the old stuff. Really missing that old Ftn, but someone really wanted it, so I sold it all. Now armed with digital for 15 years, the old cockpits where all analog, mechanical. Now the new cockpits are glass, computers etc. Camera have gone the same route. They take.... I mean capture (sorry) scenes better then the eye can see. Point...&... Shoot. That was easy. Do some creative photoshop and voila, better than the real thing. OK I'll let someone pick this thing apart now. And I still like B17s better than Tanks.
Let's open another can of worms to rant on. Way ba... (show quote)


Yes, and it's called progress. How would you like to go out on a cold morning and crank your car's engine to get it started? Remember those long, hot, noisy vacation drives with the windows open? I prefer A/C in my car. Remember getting stuck in a one-hour traffic jam as your clutch leg started to cramp. I don't mind having my camera lens snap to a fast, sharp focus.

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Dec 23, 2017 06:29:15   #
Shutterbug57
 
I think both digital and film have their place - they do in my stable. The way you approach each is radically different. FWIW, my film bodies are a Nikon N90s & a Mamiya M645 (first gen.) and my main digital bodies are a Nikon D-500 & Nikon D-200 (backup/second camera).

When shooting film, you start making artistic decisions when you buy your film. You need to know the characteristics of the films available and how they support or detract from the shot you are going to make. Color saturation and grain structure are important considerations as are the dynamic range and how far you can push or pull a film and what that does to the resulting shot. When you buy your film, especially B&W, you are also thinking what developer will give me the desired result. If you are going to print, you may well also be thinking about the paper you will use. Then you buy the film.

In the digital world, your body is your film. Megapixles, ISO range & dynamic range are primarily considerations, but so are FX or DX and frames per second, etc. Our film has become conjoined with our hardware. Camera bodies have also sucked in part of the traditional lens function - look at all the gelded lenses that have no way to independently control the aperture.

With digital, your considerations at the time of purchase are less about how any final image will look and more about the hardware. Most of the “film related” artistic decisions are made in post. Want Tri-X grain, click here. Don’t like it, click undo and try another preset. Want old Velvia 50 color saturation, slide this and that, then save a preset. The list goes on and on.

I am not saying one is better than the other, but each have their place. I use digital for the majority of my shooting, but when I want a particular artistic image, film is where I turn. When my kids were at home and playing lots of sports. I shot their games as a journalist and published shots of the games on a team website. Sure I shot my kids, but I shot everybody else’s as well. For this, digital was by far the best way to go. I could shoot a game and have everything published within a few hours. My main concerns were about capturing publishable images - focus, exposure & compensation. The look of the “film” was not important and, for outside night games or dimly lit gyms, noise was just a part of the process (D-200), but noise and grain are completely different. Don’t believe that? Try picking the noise pattern you want in your image.

Now that the kids are adults, I have more time to shoot more artistic images. While digital is still a big part of that world, for many shots I find myself grabbing a film camera. While I enjoy the ease and cost of shooting digital, I find that the images are antiseptic. Shoot at ISO 100 and get no noise - great, but there is no grain or character either. Sure you can add “film grain” in post with an effect, but that is not film grain any more than adding a watercolor effect makes the image a watercolor painting.

Maybe it’s part of being an old fart, but I grew up making the “film decisions” and I can see the difference in the final images between film and digital. If I want the grain of Tri-X pushed 2 stops and processed in D-76, then I will shoot Tri-X and develop it that way. I still have a couple bricks of Old Velvia 50 in the freezer, but I am not going to use it for a portrait shoot when I can get Portra 160.

For me, there are things film does best and things digital does best. The trick is in knowing which tool to use for any given job.

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Dec 23, 2017 06:33:15   #
Manglesphoto Loc: 70 miles south of St.Louis
 
crazydaddio wrote:
Still need to see the photo in your mind and make the settings in the camera create it....the brain hasn't had an upgrade that I am aware of.....
...I have not seen a $5000 camera in auto take a much better pic than a good iPhone (Sports and low-light notwithstanding) but in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing....magic.
It can all be done faster however as you noted (shoot, chimp, adjust, reshoot, download, tweak, send over internet)

Maybe your brain hasn't been update, but mine is updated everyday, that's not to say I use the updates , but I learn something new everyday, the problem is remembering it

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Dec 23, 2017 06:47:41   #
Retina Loc: Near Charleston,SC
 
The only thing I miss about my film SLRs (Spotmatic, Nikon F, SRT-100) are the large, bright viewfinders. Mixing D-76 with no shoes, in the snow, uphill both ways is nothing I will ever miss. Mama, don’t take my SD cards away.

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Dec 23, 2017 06:51:19   #
bobramewe
 
Manglesphoto wrote:
Maybe your brain hasn't been update, but mine is updated everyday, that's not to say I use the updates , but I learn something new everyday, the problem is remembering it




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Dec 23, 2017 06:52:32   #
Add Loc: S.W.Florida
 
I still like a J3 Cub!

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Dec 23, 2017 06:52:36   #
mikeroetex Loc: Lafayette, LA
 
geodowns wrote:
Let's open another can of worms to rant on. Way back for 50+ years the only camera I had was a Nikon Ftn, all manual everything. You had to know your stuff, you had to be quick, focus, click... with no previews of your shot to look at. You had a box of filters for every occasions, than you were at the mercy of the lab to do a good job or do it yourself, print it yourself, fix it yourself. Now even a $5000 camera can point and shot. Times have change. I feel like an old fighter pilot with all the glory story's in the past. Young wepersnapers don't have a clue what its like to really be good with the old stuff. Really missing that old Ftn, but someone really wanted it, so I sold it all. Now armed with digital for 15 years, the old cockpits where all analog, mechanical. Now the new cockpits are glass, computers etc. Camera have gone the same route. They take.... I mean capture (sorry) scenes better then the eye can see. Point...&... Shoot. That was easy. Do some creative photoshop and voila, better than the real thing. OK I'll let someone pick this thing apart now. And I still like B17s better than Tanks.
Let's open another can of worms to rant on. Way ba... (show quote)

I've heard those fancy new Winchester repeating rifles are much better than those muskets we been using in this war. All those guys do is point and shoot, no reload, no gunpowder packing.

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Dec 23, 2017 07:18:50   #
bobramewe
 
mikeroetex wrote:
I've heard those fancy new Winchester repeating rifles are much better than those muskets we been using in this war. All those guys do is point and shoot, no reload, no gunpowder packing.



Perfect!

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Dec 23, 2017 07:30:03   #
Burtzy Loc: Bronx N.Y. & Simi Valley, CA
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
When you get right down to the basics of photography, nothing has changed all that much. Once you cut through all the high tech automation, unnecessary bells and whistles, advertising hype and techno-babble there are only three controls of any significance in every adjustable camera and lens; aperture, shutter speed and focus. If the “photographer” is really a photographer and fully understands and MASTERS the multiple and interrelated functions of theses three adjustments, he or she can produce, create and enable a myriad of effects, moods, and images only limited by one's imagination. Many great and even iconic images were made with simple decent gear. Many photography enthusiasts are just too preoccupied with gear and would do better (photographically) to concentrate on simplicity and really learning their craft.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with today's high tech automated equipment. It just makes things more convenient at times. The savvy photographer knows how to maximize the usage of this automation by manipulating it to their own requirements or totally bypassing theses programs and adjusting things manually.

There is no automation to replace artistry. Elements such as composition, aesthetics, “seeing” and applying the dynamic of light are all talents, perhaps inborn traits, however, even those who are fortunate enough to posses theses attributes still need to develop theses talents and learn the craftsmanship and technology.

I have spent many decades in the film era and admittedly, I do miss certain aspects of the craftsmanship. There is little use, however, in pining for the good old days, perhaps, in retrospect they were old but not all that “good”. Besides, how can one revert to the film era when most of the film, fine papers and chemistry are no longer in production. One would spend more time trying to acquire whatever is still around, mixing scratch chemistry and basically living in the past, than shooting and creating images.

All of the camera handling and image management of film cameras can be related to digital gear and all of the aesthetics of analog darkroom work can be translated to post processing and editing.

There is still no technology to replace patience and hard work.
When you get right down to the basics of photograp... (show quote)


I couldn't agree more. I've been a photographer all my life and though the tools have changed, the techniques I learned from more than sixty years of indulging in my passion for the image are still as valuable today as they were my first shot of the "Spaceman" in the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade in 1954. I spent my adult entire career as a film editor, moving from Moviolas to KEM Editing machines to today's digital workflow, and though the tools have changed, the creative decision making remains. Just as in the days of "Lassie," the rule remains the same regardless of the editing tools: "When in doubt, cut to the dog."

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Dec 23, 2017 07:37:56   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
geodowns wrote:
Let's open another can of worms to rant on. Way back for 50+ years the only camera I had was a Nikon Ftn, all manual everything. You had to know your stuff, you had to be quick, focus, click... with no previews of your shot to look at. You had a box of filters for every occasions, than you were at the mercy of the lab to do a good job or do it yourself, print it yourself, fix it yourself. Now even a $5000 camera can point and shot. Times have change. I feel like an old fighter pilot with all the glory story's in the past. Young wepersnapers don't have a clue what its like to really be good with the old stuff. Really missing that old Ftn, but someone really wanted it, so I sold it all. Now armed with digital for 15 years, the old cockpits where all analog, mechanical. Now the new cockpits are glass, computers etc. Camera have gone the same route. They take.... I mean capture (sorry) scenes better then the eye can see. Point...&... Shoot. That was easy. Do some creative photoshop and voila, better than the real thing. OK I'll let someone pick this thing apart now. And I still like B17s better than Tanks.
Let's open another can of worms to rant on. Way ba... (show quote)


I owned a Nikon FTN, and an F2, F3, and F4, and finally an F5. I can truthfully state that I am far happier with a digital Nikon than I ever was with film. Why? Glad you asked, it is called instant gratification. I can see my test shot results and make adjustments for the second and final shot based on 60 years of experience. And, my eyes went a long time ago, if I'm going to get action shots or pictures of my red haired devil of a grand daughter I need auto focus, and auto exposure, and continuous auto focus, and Group Auto Focus, and an exceed 5 processor, and center weighted metering, and 10 frames a second, and more than 36 exposures between loading more ammunition, and everything else they come up with. YEA innovation. As that Chrysler guy said, "lead or get run over". Yea, that's me, don't want to be road kill.

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Dec 23, 2017 07:41:50   #
sb Loc: Florida's East Coast
 
To SOME extent I have to agree with you - when you paid money for each shot, waited a week to get your photos back, and only had the option of cropping a photo if you printed it yourself, you spent a little more time thinking about composition and exposure! Even more so with a view camera, with which you could spend half an hour getting ready to take the photo. My college had an extremely popular photography course that was very limited in size because they had view camera kits that each student was loaned for the semester. No roll film. No mailing your film in for development. Students really had to learn composition and exposure. Today is much simpler, but what does make a "photographer" is paying attention to exposure and composition, rather than "pointing and shooting".

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Dec 23, 2017 07:44:28   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
Manglesphoto wrote:
Maybe your brain hasn't been update, but mine is updated everyday, that's not to say I use the updates , but I learn something new everyday, the problem is remembering it


Lol.
Brain doesnt get the update...firmware and hardware doesnt change. It's like Microsoft Excel...same spreadsheet app, but we load into it different macros and numbers :)

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Dec 23, 2017 07:49:36   #
Shutterbug57
 
Retina wrote:
Mama, don’t take my SD cards away.


Better watch out - she already got your Kodachrome...

And your CF cards...

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Dec 23, 2017 07:50:35   #
Shutterbug57
 
Add wrote:
I still like a J3 Cub!


Gotta love an aircraft that uses a stick and a cork for a gas gauge.

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Dec 23, 2017 07:52:13   #
ncribble Loc: Albuquerque, NM
 
George, you probably like “the Bang, Pop, Cough, Fart, and smell of the ole radial engines of yesteryear too. I do, but nothing is as smooth as our jetf of today. But Oh! Those memories.. Norm

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