Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
(Ephesians 2:8–10 ESV)

The subject is GRACE that is given by God... God has saved you by His grace... because of your faith in Him... you don't receive grace by being good or even righteous... the THIS is referring to what you are not doing, WORKS... the IT is referring to the gift of GRACE that God gives... IT is THE gift of God (not gifts but gift)... and not of works so that you can not say that you deserve grace for being good. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Abraham receive God's grace not because of what he had done but because he had faith in God. We are all children of Abraham if we believe in God as Abraham had believed.

Romans 5:1-2 (ESV)
1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

I don't know why you keep coming into my threads and just asserting things without any support but you are wrong. The only thing that you could say that would be relevant would be "the neuter pronoun τοῦτο doesn't function as you said, and here's why...." then you'd have something worth talking about, however you are right that Paul is saying that our entire salvation is not of ourselves.

Having said that, thanks for posting the Romans 5 passage though I can't imagine why you think it's relevant. Reformed folks believe it also...great passage.

I'm not going to have you ruin this thread also...I already know how you operate, however I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you want to discuss other passages that specifically address this topic and not just post them in a drive-by shooting sort of way then start your own thread and I'd be glad to respond.

I suggest John 6:35 and onward. It specifically addresses this topic, but if you want to stick with Paul's writings we could talk about Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

bobishkan Loc: Fort Myers Sunny Florida

Salvation is all of God. God does it all including giving us the faith. If we managed as dead men to somehow have faith, we could take some credit for our salvation. We start off dead in our sins. God makes us alive, God causes us to repent, God then gives us faith. If the faith came from us, we could take some credit for our salvation. The question really is, who is in charge, God or me? If you don't understand TULIP or the doctrines of grace, any one of the five points will seem un natural. But when you see how God planned His whole salvation plan, the light bulb will go on!

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

I could not have summarized it better!!

Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

Thank you Robert for your invitation...

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Paul had gone to the Jews first with the gospel, as was expected of him but when the Jews rejected his message, Paul then turned to the Gentiles.

"...and as many - believed, was appointed to eternal life." They heard the message of Paul and believed, thus receiving eternal life by the grace of God, not by keeping the Law and earning salvation by their own efforts but in faith.

You have to believe before you can receive. The word appoint (Tasso) can also mean 'set, established, ordain, determine, addict'

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

We are on the same page so far.



But that's not what the text says; you just typed it backwards. I do agree that they heard the message and believed, but you turn the text upside down to make it fit your theology. That's not exegesis, that's eisegesis.



I know what the semantic range of tasso is...but that's not how exegesis is done. You don't get to just list the semantic range and pick what you like. If you want to pick one of it's meanings, then go ahead and defend that particular meaning in context.

I won't comment other than to say that. I'll wait until you can actually address the text with accuracy.

bobishkan Loc: Fort Myers Sunny Florida

The ones that believed did so because God made the first move in making dead men understand the Gospel by opening their spiritual eyes and ears to believe. They were the elect of God. God did that by his grace. Then these men saw their need to repent, also directed by God. Then God gave them faith. Again it is all of God. Man left to his own devices would never believe or repent. You don't save yourself by doing anything, including conjuring up some faith on your own. God does it all. Try to understand TULIP and it will all click. It took me 50 years to figure this out. I am 73. I'm in good company what with St Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Sproul, McArthur and most of the reformers. Once you understand how God has been working behind the scenes to save you, your salvation will become even more magnificent and you will want to obey even more. Blessings: Bob

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Thanks...lol.. I heartily agree. Im just trying to get others to think about what they are typing and to get their meaning from the text itself and not traditions.

Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

I only tried to make it simple so that you could understand it's true meaning, but like the Jews of Acts 13, you reject the truth.

Watch, please, to the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgN004Uv6Qk

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Ok..thanks for dumbing it down for me, now let's discuss it.

Tell me why you turned it backwards. Tell me what, from the text itself, caused you to do that. Don't link videos...I'm not interested.

Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana

Beginning with verse 4 through verse 41, Paul and Barnabas has gone into a synagogue and was ask to speak to the congregation, to both Jewish and gentile proselytes. Paul shared the gospel beginning with the Israelites being taken from Egypt to Jesus being crucified on the cross, proving from scripture that Jesus was the Messiah and that God had raised Him from the dead.

A key verse; Acts 13:38-39 (ESV)
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

Another Key Verse; Acts 13:42-43 (ESV)
42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath.
43 And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.

These are people, both Jew and gentile converts who had heard Paul's message about Jesus Christ and believed. They wanted to hear more and begged Paul and Barnabas to return on the next Sabbath. Even after the meeting was over some Jews and gentiles followed Paul and Barnabas, encouraging them to continue in the grace of God.

By the next Sabbath most of the city had come to hear what Paul had to say. Those who had heard the message of Paul from the past Sabbath must have spread the word for so many to come. But not all Jews liked what Paul had preached, seeing the crowd they became envious and contradicted Paul. They wanted to hold onto their beliefs in the Laws of Moses So, they rejected Paul's message;

Acts 13:46 (ESV)
46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

It was the Jews who had deem themselves 'unworthy of eternal life'. They heard the message of salvation and rejected it. So, Paul now turns to the gentiles;

Acts 13:47 (ESV)
47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

When the gentiles heard this they rejoiced! Why? Because God included them also in His plan of salvation. They no longer had to become Jewish converts because Christ had died for them as well. They rejoiced over the word of the Lord and, were the Jews had rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ, the gentiles receive the gospel with welcoming hearts. They believed with the heart...

Acts 13:48 (ESV) 48 and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Their hearts were made ready to receive God's gift of eternal life because of the message they had heard and they believed. Their hearts were SET to believe, or DISPOSED or put in ORDER to believe. What does Paul say elsewhere in scripture?

Romans 10:8-12 (ESV)
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Before the foundation of the world God had ordained that the Word be preached and that who ever hears and believes will be saved. This then is the will of God, that whosoever shall believe, should not perish but have eternal life. When we place our trust and our hope in God through Jesus Christ, God will accept our faith and deem us righteous in the blood of Christ as our sacrificial Lamb.

So, why did I place 'believed' before 'appointed to eternal life'? Because one must hear the message to believe and must believe before they can receive eternal life...

Romans 10:14-15 (ESV)
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

So far so good.




They believed...yes!



There's the operative phrase that you had turned around and I asked why you changed the order of the words.



But that's not what the text says is it?



You can't do that to the text. You can't take the semantic range of a word and the word order and syntax and just plug in what you like to suit you. I'll keep reading and then comment about this at the end.


What does Paul say elsewhere in scripture?




And dang it if I don't believe everyone of those passages!



No...He didn't. He ordained that His elect would hear and believe and be saved. Not that anyone who believes. He died for His sheep, His elect, His people.

That's in the bible.



Why why why do you KEEP doing that? It's NOT WHO EVER believes and anyone can believe...it's "the believing ones" as a group. You cannot import that meaning into the text.



When we place our trust and hope in Jesus Christ He will save us and that hope and faith is from Him also. It's not a reward for us bringing something to the table...so that we cannot boast.



We'd both agree however that doesn't change the fact that you turned the words around to suit your pre-conceived theology. That's not exegesis (getting the meaning FROM the text) that's eisegesis (getting your meaning from OUTSIDE the text and importing it INTO the text.)




And of course I'd agree with that passage whole heartedly.


Now here is why you cannot turn that passage on it's head and just pick from the semantic range and do what you want with it:

To start with your "we disposed to" or any of that nonsense. Let's see how the main translations translate it.

None of them convey the idea that they were “made ready” or “were disposed to” at all.



and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV, 1611) 



and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (ASV, 1901).



and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV, 1984) 



and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers. (NRSV, 1989) 



and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB Update, 1995) 



and all who were appointed to eternal life became believers. (NLT, 1996) 



and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed. (NET, 1998) 



None of them, not one even hint at what you said it means.

The grammar and syntax are against you also; the verb “τεταγμένοι”



Luke uses this verb, in the passive, to clearly mean “appoint” elsewhere.

For example:
“And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed (τέτακταί) for you to do.’ (Acts 22: 10) 



Would you turn this one around also? Would you have imported the meaning that "Luke was disposed to" or anything like that?

No...you'd take it as written, that things were appointed for him to do, that God had appointed him to do certain things as the sovereign Lord.

We can do the same thing in Acts 28: 23, where they “set a day” for Paul’s hearing, again using the passive form of the same verb. Paul was not “disposed toward” a date, he was appointed a date. 



If all of that isn't enough to show your bias of that particular text, then there is a grammatical reason why the normal translation and understanding of this passage should be accepted (along with the resultant meaning). 



The term “appointed” here is found in what is called a periphrastic construction. 



A periphrastic construction involves the use of a participle with a form of the Greek verb of being, είμί. By combining different tenses of both elements, a particular result is achieved. 



In this case, Luke uses the imperfect form of eimi together with the perfect passive participle. (ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι)

The result is that the phrase must be translated as a “pluperfect.” 

A pluperfect sense speaks of a completed action in the past, but unlike the perfect tense, the pluperfect does not contain the idea of a continuation of the past action into the present time.



Therefore, the meaning of “appointed” refers to a past action. 

So..."had been appointed." Those that believed were the group that "had been appointed to believe" before the foundation of the world.

This is Luke’s explanation of why some who heard believed while others did not: the difference was not that some were better or more “disposed” toward the gospel than others (the very idea of someone being disposed toward the gospel is utterly contrary to Paul’s teaching in Romans 8: 7-8): the difference is that some were appointed to eternal life as part of the eternal decree of God, and others were not. 



This is Romans 8:7-8

“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

So to turn the order of the text around I'd have to believe that these Gentiles can please God by their belief? They can come to Jesus in faith and be rewarded with eternal life?

No can do.

Men who are not born again, men who are "in the flesh" do not have the ability to please God...if a man believes, it's because he's been appointed to believe as the text clearly says. The grammar and syntax of that passage, and the entire text of scripture won't allow you to turn it upside down.

This dovetails nicely with what we've discussed earlier in John where the unbelief has been explained in verse 6:35 that those were not "given to the Son" by the Father.

Jesus Himself in John 6:63-65 also says clearly that men must be born again, regenerated before they will believe:

"It is the Spirit who gives life [quickens]; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

If I turn the text of Acts 13:48 upside down, then I must believe that they "were disposed" to believe or something, but clearly that cannot be. They believed because they were given by the Father to the Son...they were of the elect.

In Jesus' High Priestly prayer in John 17 He says:

“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.


“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
(John 17:1–19 ESV)

Jesus' words dovetail nicely with John 3 (you must be born again) John 6(All that the father gives Me will come and I will raise them), Romans 9 (God hardens whom He will and mercies whom He will), Acts 13:48 (And all who had been ordained to eternal life, believed) but they make no sense at all if we turn the text upside down to mean that "all have the ability and God has leveled the playing field to reward those who have faith with eternal life" You make mush of the bible's words.

We can keep going on other passages if you'd like, Mark 4:11 is also devastating to your upside down interpretation that men believe and then are rewarded with salvation:

Jesus has just spoken many parables in the hearing of a huge crowd and he ends with "...“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Wait...don't all men have ears? Yes...but hearing is synonymous with receiving and believing.

The text goes on to say:

"And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that (purpose clause; for the purpose of) “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””

Jesus spoke in parables not to make it easy to understand His words...but to draw His elect; they would hear and understand and the non-elect would not respond.

The bible is replete with this idea. Just read from John 6 and finish the book. Jesus died for (in place of) His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and they come. The Father gives these sheep to the Son.

I could continue but I think the point was made right at the time above that I pointed out the impossibility of the construction of the phrase not allowing you to turn it backwards...the rest was just support for that.


PS: This isn't just one man, Calvin saying this. This IS the theology of the reformers. They were biblicists above all.

Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, Martin Luther (who considered this doctrine the heart of the Reformation), John Owen, the Puritans of the 17th century, Augustine, George White..and on and on.

bobishkan Loc: Fort Myers Sunny Florida

Hey Rpavich: I read your detailed answer very closely and tried to find just one or two points that were not consistent with orthodox, biblical theology. I could not find anything. You have a wonderful grasp of what God says in his Word. It's refreshing in this day and age. I'm wondering, when do you have time to take pictures? Just kidding! Blessings: Bob

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Thank you so much, that’s so nice to hear!

God bless you, brother