Our salvation is a gift from God!
Dec 6, 2017 07:07:05 #
Very recently I was involved in a discussion where it was objected to that God is the author and finisher of our faith from end to end. It was suggested that our belief is something that we bring to the table in some sort of exchange with God. God makes salvation possible but not a certainty. He provides a level playing field, and some of us exhibit this faith, some do not, and God responds to the ones who believed by saving them and if we differ in our understanding of this process, if we believe that salvation is entirely a gift from God, that we are chosen, drawn, and we believe because of God's choice then that's some sort of fringe, whacko belief system!
The truth is that if you believe, then it's because God knew you, drew you, chose you, and gave you the very belief that you possess. In fact, if you are a believer, the fact that you persevere in your belief is because even that perseverance is God's doing!
For a believer those are comforting words; that we cannot lose our faith or standing before God on the basis or our daily performance. That we are kept by God as a precious possession to His glory.
The specific passage that came up was a familiar one: Ephesians 2:8-9:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
(Ephesians 2:8–10 ESV)
What is the "this" that the bible refers to that's a gift from God?
Faith?
Grace?
Something else?
In the other thread knowing a bit about the Greek language of the day was demonized as wrong but it's certainly helpful in understanding what the authors of scripture said and in this case, it makes it very clear.
The pronoun "this" (τοῦτο) would normally point back to an antecedent that matched it's gender (faith or grace) but in this case, the pronoun is neuter and faith and grace are feminine. As I said yesterday, this means that "this" points back to the whole enchilada; everything included in our salvation; the faith that we have, the grace given, our salvation in it's entirety is a gift from God. This isn't uncommon, it's also found in Ephesians 6:1
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.”
And in 1st Corinthians 6:6:
“but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?”
(1 Corinthians 6:6 ESV)
You get the idea...
Isn't that a beautiful and comforting thing to know for the believer!
As Paul said in Philippians 1:29:
“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake….”
This is the historic Protestant position, that salvation is wholly from God...even the belief we have.
It gives me goosebumps to know that God is who He is and is working out His plans in the world and cannot fail!
All glory goes to God!
The truth is that if you believe, then it's because God knew you, drew you, chose you, and gave you the very belief that you possess. In fact, if you are a believer, the fact that you persevere in your belief is because even that perseverance is God's doing!
For a believer those are comforting words; that we cannot lose our faith or standing before God on the basis or our daily performance. That we are kept by God as a precious possession to His glory.
The specific passage that came up was a familiar one: Ephesians 2:8-9:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
(Ephesians 2:8–10 ESV)
What is the "this" that the bible refers to that's a gift from God?
Faith?
Grace?
Something else?
In the other thread knowing a bit about the Greek language of the day was demonized as wrong but it's certainly helpful in understanding what the authors of scripture said and in this case, it makes it very clear.
The pronoun "this" (τοῦτο) would normally point back to an antecedent that matched it's gender (faith or grace) but in this case, the pronoun is neuter and faith and grace are feminine. As I said yesterday, this means that "this" points back to the whole enchilada; everything included in our salvation; the faith that we have, the grace given, our salvation in it's entirety is a gift from God. This isn't uncommon, it's also found in Ephesians 6:1
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.”
And in 1st Corinthians 6:6:
“but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?”
(1 Corinthians 6:6 ESV)
You get the idea...
Isn't that a beautiful and comforting thing to know for the believer!
As Paul said in Philippians 1:29:
“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake….”
This is the historic Protestant position, that salvation is wholly from God...even the belief we have.
It gives me goosebumps to know that God is who He is and is working out His plans in the world and cannot fail!
All glory goes to God!
Dec 6, 2017 07:56:56 #
bobishkan
Loc: Fort Myers Sunny Florida
Preach it brother! When people disagree with what you (and God) has said, I will ask them regarding Eph 2: 8-9, "What part of NOT do you NOT understand? Sounds like you have a good understanding of the doctrines of faith. Blessings: Bob
Dec 6, 2017 07:59:05 #
bobishkan wrote:
Preach it brother! When people disagree with what you (and God) has said, I will ask them regarding Eph 2: 8-9, "What part of NOT do you NOT understand? Sounds like you have a good understanding of the doctrines of faith. Blessings: Bob
Thank you so very much, I appreciate it. I really do!
Dec 6, 2017 08:03:26 #
Dec 6, 2017 08:23:11 #
nicksr1125 wrote:
Amen; AMen; AMEN!!!
Thank you also. Very much appreciated.
Dec 6, 2017 12:20:29 #
Your words - "The truth is that if you believe, then it's because God knew you, drew you, chose you, and gave you the very belief that you possess. In fact, if you are a believer, the fact that you persevere in your belief is because even that perseverance is God's doing!" - So if God doe not chose me I will go to hell? - Dave
Dec 6, 2017 12:24:32 #
wilsondl2 wrote:
Your words - "The truth is that if you believe, then it's because God knew you, drew you, chose you, and gave you the very belief that you possess. In fact, if you are a believer, the fact that you persevere in your belief is because even that perseverance is God's doing!" - So if God doe not chose me I will go to hell? - Dave
No. You will go to Hell because you are a sinner.
All men deserve to go to Hell. God would be just in not saving anyone.
Do you think that's unfair of God?
Dec 6, 2017 12:27:18 #
bobishkan
Loc: Fort Myers Sunny Florida
Quick Answer: Yes to your question. If God did not choose you first, you would never have chosen Him. He is under no obligation to save anybody. The real question is why would he choose anybody? For example the Bible states, "Jacob have I loved. Esau have I hated" God is God and can do whatever he pleases. This doctrine is hard to stomach unless you understand TULIP. Check it out on line. It is what all the reformers, Luther, Calvin, etc believed and what most churches taught 100 years ago. Blessings: Bob
Dec 6, 2017 12:48:18 #
bobishkan wrote:
Quick Answer: Yes to your question. If God did not... (show quote)
True.
In fact, if you disagree with it, Paul has an answer for you.
(Paul, taking the side of an "objector" to his statement that God mercies some and hardens others)
“You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
This is the objection; "If it's God's choice that determines who will be saved, by hardening some and mercying others...then how can He punish us for that...that's unfair!"
Paul's answer:
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”
(Romans 9:19–24 ESV)
You don't want to be on the other side of the Apostle's argument.
Dec 6, 2017 12:54:07 #
bobishkan
Loc: Fort Myers Sunny Florida
Hey Rpavich: I am a chaplain at a Florida prison. We could use some reformed help in the chapel. Ever think about moving to Florida? You seem to be able to give Sproul a run for his money!!! Appreciate you brother! Bob
Dec 6, 2017 12:56:33 #
bobishkan wrote:
Hey Rpavich: I am a chaplain at a Florida prison. We could use some reformed help in the chapel. Ever think about moving to Florida? You seem to be able to give Sproul a run for his money!!! Appreciate you brother! Bob
Oh that's awesome that you are there! In fact I'm going to Florida over Christmas break. My wife's relatives live there. I might retire there :)
Dec 8, 2017 13:51:06 #
Dec 8, 2017 13:54:41 #
aammatj wrote:
Ahmen!!
Well thank you very much!
It's great to see such positive statements after the negative stuff that's been said about my posts recently.
Dec 8, 2017 14:06:44 #
bobishkan
Loc: Fort Myers Sunny Florida
Rpavich remember that only about 1% of people that call themselves Christians would agree with reformed theology and only about 3% of those persons that are true believers understand the doctrines of grace. Even so called reformed denominations such as PCUSA or ELCA have changed their thinking and preaching from the pulpit from what their confessions say they actually believe. So sad! Blessings: Bob
Dec 8, 2017 14:15:32 #
bobishkan wrote:
Rpavich remember that only about 1% of people that call themselves Christians would agree with reformed theology and only about 3% of those persons that are true believers understand the doctrines of grace. Even so called reformed denominations such as PCUSA or ELCA have changed their thinking and preaching from the pulpit from what their confessions say they actually believe. So sad! Blessings: Bob
That seems about right from what I've observed. Yes...so sad.
I get very perplexed when folks HATE the idea that God is working out His will in folks salvation...it makes no sense. To me, it's the best news there is.
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