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Was it my local store or Nikon's fault?
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Sep 30, 2017 17:35:47   #
Meganephron Loc: Fort Worth, TX
 
leftj wrote:
Apple's not as dumb as you think. They're making a lot more money on the X and the 8 will be a staple in their product line. Also, you don't know what their expectations were.


Well the WSJ says the 8 is far under performing expectations so I'll take their word for it. The X is only about $200 more than the 8. The way ATT finances phones that will be about $10 a month more on a two year contract.

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Sep 30, 2017 17:36:40   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
BebuLamar wrote:
It is your fault. You should know what kind of things you're buying.


Really, Come on now. Are you assuming everyone who buys their first DSLR should magically absorb all that technical data and jargon with no prior experience before they buy? Its an unrealistic assumption. When going to a reputable Nikon dealer new customers have a reasonable expectation that the salesperson, who is the presumed "expert", will assist with advice.The reality may be different, but you can't blame the new customer for not having sufficient expertise to make those kinds of decisions regarding what is a very technical piece of equipment. There is too much to learn and no way for a newbie to understand which bits of information might be more important than others. The only thing the average consumer focuses on is megapixels, brand name and price.

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Sep 30, 2017 17:42:38   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
mwsilvers wrote:
Really, Come on now. Are you assuming everyone who buys their first DSLR should magically absorb all that technical data and jargon with no prior experience before they buy? Its an unrealistic assumption. When going to a reputable Nikon dealer new customers have a reasonable expectation that the salesperson, who is the presumed "expert", will assist with advice.The reality may be different, but you can't blame the new customer for not having sufficient expertise to make those kinds of decisions regarding what is a very technical piece of equipment. There is too much to learn and no way for a newbie to understand which bits of information might be more important than others. The only thing the average consumer focuses on is megapixels, brand name and price.
Really, Come on now. Are you assuming everyone who... (show quote)


and a whole lot of their learning happens after they have their first camera.

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Sep 30, 2017 17:43:26   #
Meganephron Loc: Fort Worth, TX
 
mwsilvers wrote:
Really, Come on now. Are you assuming everyone who buys their first DSLR should magically absorb all that technical data and jargon with no prior experience before they buy? Its an unrealistic assumption. When going to a reputable Nikon dealer new customers have a reasonable expectation that the salesperson, who is the presumed "expert", will assist with advice.The reality may be different, but you can't blame the new customer for not having sufficient expertise to make those kinds of decisions regarding what is a very technical piece of equipment. There is too much to learn and no way for a newbie to understand which bits of information might be more important than others. The only thing the average consumer focuses on is megapixels, brand name and price.
Really, Come on now. Are you assuming everyone who... (show quote)


The largest volume low end Nikon dealer in US is Costco. No expert.

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Sep 30, 2017 17:45:28   #
r.grossner Loc: Rockford IL & Sarasota FL
 
Rich1939 wrote:
and a whole lot of their learning happens after they have their first camera.


I've had my D750 for over a year and still learn something every time I shoot. The manual lives on the coffee table.

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Sep 30, 2017 17:56:39   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
mwsilvers wrote:
Really, Come on now. Are you assuming everyone who buys their first DSLR should magically absorb all that technical data and jargon with no prior experience before they buy? Its an unrealistic assumption. When going to a reputable Nikon dealer new customers have a reasonable expectation that the salesperson, who is the presumed "expert", will assist with advice.The reality may be different, but you can't blame the new customer for not having sufficient expertise to make those kinds of decisions regarding what is a very technical piece of equipment. There is too much to learn and no way for a newbie to understand which bits of information might be more important than others. The only thing the average consumer focuses on is megapixels, brand name and price.
Really, Come on now. Are you assuming everyone who... (show quote)


So the store is obligated to educate every buyer as if they are newbies? Or is Nikon obligated to put out "kits" of every possible combination to accommodate every possible consumer wish? Or should a buyer of expensive technology be expected to do a little reading before going to the store? Which is most reasonable? Neither stores nor manufacturers should be held accountable for buyers who are too unmotivated to take advantage of easily obtained information. The next camera purchase the OP makes will hopefully be more thoughtfully planned. As Will Rogers said, "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."

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Sep 30, 2017 18:03:22   #
sodapop Loc: Bel Air, MD
 
I ordered a Nikon D 3000 (entry level) a long time ago. First real DSLR. It arrived with two lenses, 18-55mm and 55-200mm. both had VR. I ordered directly from Nikon.

dcampbell52 wrote:
What Nikon did was put together an inexpensive (entry level) package. This is the same as is done by ANY other retailer. You can go to a car dealer and get the "advertised" car at a (seemingly) really low price, or you can get the car that has what you want for more. The same is true of televisions, stereos, and yes, camera gear. The trick is to understand what you are looking for. Rarely (in cameras, or other retail packages) with the "kit" contain what you really need. They will sell you that for slightly more. Look at Adorama or B&H kits. They generally have a decent camera, (no lenses) a decent camera bag, a no-name battery (in addition to the brand name battery that comes with the camera) for a fairly cheap price. The price is cheaper (usually) than you can buy the camera from a local dealer by it's self. So, are they robbing you or misleading you? No, you got the camera and all you need is the lenses of choice. Or you might find a package (as you did) with a decent camera but the least expensive lenses they could put in for a price point. Want more or better, go buy they but it got you started. They didn't cheat you.. You were expecting gold but were only willing to pay for lead. It wasn't Nikon's fault, it wasn't the dealers fault. YOU didn't ask the right questions.
What Nikon did was put together an inexpensive (en... (show quote)

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Sep 30, 2017 18:10:04   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
mwsilvers wrote:
The reality may be different, but you can't blame the new customer for not having sufficient expertise to make those kinds of decisions regarding what is a very technical piece of equipment.


Would you buy a car before knowing whether it had all the technical stuff you wanted on it? I don't think so! A camera from a camera store is usually bought on impulse. It shouldn't be! If you don't know what you are buying, don't buy it!

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Sep 30, 2017 18:18:21   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
Meganephron wrote:
The largest volume low end Nikon dealer in US is Costco. No expert.

That's right. But the buyers there make their purchases based on blind faith that a reputable company like Nikon will have all the bits and pieces they need right in the box. And with Costco's generous return policy there is little risk. I got my first Canon DSLR kit there based on that same logic.

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Sep 30, 2017 18:26:35   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
CatMarley wrote:
Would you buy a car before knowing whether it had all the technical stuff you wanted on it? I don't think so! A camera from a camera store is usually bought on impulse. It shouldn't be! If you don't know what you are buying, don't buy it!

You're being naive if you think the average car buyer knows more than 10% of the technical things that are in their car. The decisions are mostly about color, styling, creature comforts and price. People often shop around and read reviews to help them make that decision, but that doesn't mean they understand anything about automotive technology. And that's for a $35,000 car, not a $600 starter DSLR kit.

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Sep 30, 2017 19:11:10   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
Not at all to required to treat every customer as a newbie. That is were the sales staff has to inquire a bit to determine what the level of the customer might be. They should then get an idea of the level of knowledge the buyer has or believes he/she has. Is a camera, especially an entry level camera expensive technology. It might be to some and it might not be to others. It is hard to paint with a broad brush. And many areas don't have a good brick and mortar camera store with knowledgeable staff. Many people are going to have to rely on a less than expert sales staff in a big box store or what info they can and are willing to gather from other sources.

Best,
Todd Ferguson

CatMarley wrote:
So the store is obligated to educate every buyer as if they are newbies? Or is Nikon obligated to put out "kits" of every possible combination to accommodate every possible consumer wish? Or should a buyer of expensive technology be expected to do a little reading before going to the store? Which is most reasonable? Neither stores nor manufacturers should be held accountable for buyers who are too unmotivated to take advantage of easily obtained information. The next camera purchase the OP makes will hopefully be more thoughtfully planned. As Will Rogers said, "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
So the store is obligated to educate every buyer a... (show quote)

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Sep 30, 2017 19:45:15   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
mwsilvers wrote:
You're being naive if you think the average car buyer knows more than 10% of the technical things that are in their car. The decisions are mostly about color, styling, creature comforts and price. People often shop around and read reviews to help them make that decision, but that doesn't mean they understand anything about automotive technology. And that's for a $35,000 car, not a $600 starter DSLR kit.


You don't need to understand the technology , just the use of it. How much do you need to know except whether the lens has something that will compensate for camera shake or not? If you have even an inkling of what a modern lens does - auto focus, change aperture automatically, and compensate for vibration, you know to find out whether or not a particular lens can do these things before handing over your money.

You don't need to know HOW it does it. Just like you want to know if your car has auto braking, collision warning, GPS, etc. I don't know how these things work, but I damn well know if the car has them BEFORE I buy it. And I think I am quite an average car customer!

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Sep 30, 2017 20:11:19   #
dyximan
 
CatMarley wrote:
So the store is obligated to educate every buyer as if they are newbies? Or is Nikon obligated to put out "kits" of every possible combination to accommodate every possible consumer wish? Or should a buyer of expensive technology be expected to do a little reading before going to the store? Which is most reasonable? Neither stores nor manufacturers should be held accountable for buyers who are too unmotivated to take advantage of easily obtained information. The next camera purchase the OP makes will hopefully be more thoughtfully planned. As Will Rogers said, "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
So the store is obligated to educate every buyer a... (show quote)

You can educate yourself as much as possible but if you don't know what to ask or what exists how do you know what to ask for and what to expect bottom line you don't know what you don't know until you've experienced it. I would imagine the first day you picked up a Camera you didn't know all about iso Aperture shutter priority depth of field night photography day photography moving objects etc. focal lengths, the purpose of one Lens compared to another, prime telephoto etc. until you used it for a while then found out you may or may not need one like one or how do use one. And perhaps you even had a question or two when you went to the store.

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Sep 30, 2017 20:39:54   #
whitewolfowner
 
leftj wrote:
So in war the enemy doesn't tell you about the surprise offensive they have planned against you the next day. I just hate it when enemies lie.




And where do the two situations have anything to do with the other. Are you suggesting that business is war and when I feel I was done wrong by a business that I should go shoot the owner? Get real, my friend!

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Sep 30, 2017 21:03:43   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
dyximan wrote:
You can educate yourself as much as possible but if you don't know what to ask or what exists how do you know what to ask for and what to expect bottom line you don't know what you don't know until you've experienced it. I would imagine the first day you picked up a Camera you didn't know all about iso Aperture shutter priority depth of field night photography day photography moving objects etc. focal lengths, the purpose of one Lens compared to another, prime telephoto etc. until you used it for a while then found out you may or may not need one like one or how do use one. And perhaps you even had a question or two when you went to the store.
You can educate yourself as much as possible but i... (show quote)


Common sense! Is everyone such a baby or is such a muddle when they buy a camera, even a first camera?
1. You go the the camera store. You ask questions. You write down the models that attracted you.
2. You go home and fire up your computer. You read the descriptions of the models you liked.
3. You read the reviews of the things you liked and the comparisons of the with the others you liked
4. You go back to the store and ask more educated questions about the items you investigated. You make a decision.
5. THEN you hand the man your credit card!

If you can't do this, take your mommy with you.

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