Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
Operation Paperclip: Welcome Mat for Nazi War Criminals - Occupied Germany 1945
Page <prev 2 of 4 next> last>>
Sep 8, 2017 10:55:48   #
markngolf Loc: Bridgewater, NJ
 
FYI: You can copy & paste it into an email, as with any UHH article. Just highlight, press "CTRL" & C - that copies it. Compose email and in the body press "CTRL" & V. That will paste it. Saves paper & stamps. I don't think Richard would object.
Thanks again, Richard. I'm sending it to a few friends.
Mark

Shel wrote:
Richard: Thank you for the report. I would like to print it and send it to friends, if that is OK with you.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 11:16:39   #
amyinsparta Loc: White county, TN
 
blacks2 wrote:
Amazing history, I am amazed by your knowledge Richard. Where does Werner von Braun fit into this?


Von Braun was one of the top scientists working on the A bomb. Does anyone actually think that we would/should have let all that brain power go to waste?? We and Russia carved up Germany after the war and then both of us began the search for the ultimate weapon. Then it had to be tested. And what better country to test it on than the evil empire of the East? If it had not been Japan, it likely would have been our own country, somehow, someway. Ending the war was the perfect, 'moral' excuse.
There is a vast number of 'alternate history' books. Some of them are based on no facts whatsoever, but some are quite well researched. I found out one important thing from reading them-what we read in our school history text is not necessarily the truth. Better to read historians that are not on the govt. payroll.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 11:29:47   #
Boentgru Loc: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
 
It is an oxymoron to call something "unauthorized" and "Top Secret" and " . . . developed in Washington" and then say it was implemented worldwide with other nations (U.K., Russia, French) doing the same. Of course we wanted to get as much of the information the Germans and other Axis power had knowledge of. To not implement such programs and policies would have been dereliction of duty to our Country, especially after a long war in which we paid such a high price, in people's lives, material, and money.

Reply
 
 
Sep 8, 2017 12:14:33   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
I am hoping you have saved all your articles in a digital archive. All your posts, which I like to regard as chapters, are valuable histories. Thank you for your work which is evermore important in this current political climate.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 13:24:52   #
William J Renard
 
Now that the Nazis have come and gone, What about, Cocesscu, Tito and the rest of the ilk that destroyed the German minority in Eastern Europe, with our approval????

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 13:31:15   #
markngolf Loc: Bridgewater, NJ
 
The Nazis have not gone. Very obvious from Charlottesville & other gatherings.
Mark

William J Renard wrote:
Now that the Nazis have come and gone, What about, Cocesscu, Tito and the rest of the ilk that destroyed the German minority in Eastern Europe, with our approval????

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 14:04:07   #
CliffB Loc: Bristol UK
 
The winner always pleads innocence, years ago I asked my father what he thought of the Gestapo, he said they could have found recruits in the section of the British army he was in, RAOC, Royal Army Ordinance Corps. Every race and country has a few who aepared to go beyond the limits of reason and decency.

Reply
 
 
Sep 8, 2017 14:54:07   #
pendennis
 
amyinsparta wrote:
Von Braun was one of the top scientists working on the A bomb. Does anyone actually think that we would/should have let all that brain power go to waste?? We and Russia carved up Germany after the war and then both of us began the search for the ultimate weapon. Then it had to be tested. And what better country to test it on than the evil empire of the East? If it had not been Japan, it likely would have been our own country, somehow, someway. Ending the war was the perfect, 'moral' excuse.
There is a vast number of 'alternate history' books. Some of them are based on no facts whatsoever, but some are quite well researched. I found out one important thing from reading them-what we read in our school history text is not necessarily the truth. Better to read historians that are not on the govt. payroll.
Von Braun was one of the top scientists working on... (show quote)


Werner Von Braun's research at Peenemunde was in the realm of rocket and guided missile development, not development of an atomic bomb. Germany stopped development of the atomic bomb in late 1942, since there were insufficient funds to continue such an expensive project. The German scientists proved theoretically that a bomb could be built, but the engineering costs were prohibitive. Rockets and guided missiles as weapons were conventional weapons using high explosives. Any thoughts of using missiles to deliver nuclear weapons were strictly theoretical at the time, with no engineering capabilities.

By the time Nazi Germany had surrendered, we had already developed the atomic bomb, so any German contribution would only be theoretical, not practical. We were desperately trying to keep the atomic bomb secrets away from the Soviet Union, but were being sold out Soviet agents within the Manhattan Project itself.

The Pentagon, Navy and Army Air Forces were interested in rocketry for a variety of reasons, and even the U.S. State Department wanted to get German rocket scientists here to continue research and engineering.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 16:08:59   #
ecblackiii Loc: Maryland
 
[quote=RichardQ]In early 1945, a top-secret, unauthorized plot was developed in Washington to gradually bring some 1,700 "elite" Nazi scientists and technicians to America while concealing their hideous histories of gruesome war crimes.

Why? So their advanced knowledge in rocketry, missiles, aeronautics, bionics and chemical warfare could help the U.S. prepare for an anticipated future war with Soviet Russia. The Pentagon plotters were U.S. military intelligence officers who believed their deception was necessary for our national security.

Similar programs were initiated by Britain, France and Russia.



This is insinuating more of the matter than warranted by facts. There were actually 13 Nurenberg War Crimes trials, with the first trial (of 24 indicted major Nazi leaders) being the most well known. In all, 185 Nazis were put on trial (and not all of them were convicted) There were several million members of the Nazi party, but the Allied powers felt no justification for more than 185 of them to be charged with a war crime. So painting the German scientists selected to be brought to America with the same character smear as those who actually committed atrocities, is fake history. Membership in the Nazi party was essentially required for many positions, but membership alone has never been considered a war crime. There is thus no reason for all to be tarred with the same brush of war crimes as those who were actually indicted.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 17:43:38   #
raymondh Loc: Walker, MI
 
Thank you - can't wait for part 2!

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 19:04:15   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
Another fundamental reason the Nazi' had to cease nuclear development was the Allied destruction of the Norwegian Heavy Water plant. There are several very excellant current books.

pendennis wrote:
Werner Von Braun's research at Peenemunde was in the realm of rocket and guided missile development, not development of an atomic bomb. Germany stopped development of the atomic bomb in late 1942, since there were insufficient funds to continue such an expensive project. The German scientists proved theoretically that a bomb could be built, but the engineering costs were prohibitive. Rockets and guided missiles as weapons were conventional weapons using high explosives. Any thoughts of using missiles to deliver nuclear weapons were strictly theoretical at the time, with no engineering capabilities.

By the time Nazi Germany had surrendered, we had already developed the atomic bomb, so any German contribution would only be theoretical, not practical. We were desperately trying to keep the atomic bomb secrets away from the Soviet Union, but were being sold out Soviet agents within the Manhattan Project itself.

The Pentagon, Navy and Army Air Forces were interested in rocketry for a variety of reasons, and even the U.S. State Department wanted to get German rocket scientists here to continue research and engineering.
Werner Von Braun's research at Peenemunde was in t... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Sep 8, 2017 20:34:08   #
Photogirl17 Loc: Glenwood, Ark.
 
RichardQ wrote:
In early 1945, a top-secret, unauthorized plot was developed in Washington to gradually bring some 1,700 "elite" Nazi scientists and technicians to America while concealing their hideous histories of gruesome war crimes.

Why? So their advanced knowledge in rocketry, missiles, aeronautics, bionics and chemical warfare could help the U.S. prepare for an anticipated future war with Soviet Russia. The Pentagon plotters were U.S. military intelligence officers who believed their deception was necessary for our national security.

Similar programs were initiated by Britain, France and Russia.

The secret project was first known as Operation Overcast, but was changed to Operation Paperclip in 1946. It remained classified as top secret for decades before it was exposed by investigative reporter Linda Hunt in March, 1985.

When President Harry Truman approved the temporary immigration of the first German scientists in 1945, he was not told of their war crimes histories. He specifically prohibited the entry of "any members of the Nazi Party or ardent supporters of Naziism." That probably amused the plotters.

Many, if not most, German scientists had been Nazi Party members as well as ardent Nazis in the infamous SS Corps. By mid-1945, they were postwar fugitives hiding in Occupied Germany and hunted by American, British, Russian, French - and German - prosecutors.

Their documented crimes iincluded mass murder, torture (in the guise of "experiments"), enslavement, starvation, and prolonged forced labor, all justified by the Nazi "MasterRace" theories. The breathtaking scale of their inhumanity qualified them for the gallows, several times over -- but their technical wizardry was more important to the Paperclip plotters.

The Pentagon underwent a schizophrenic split. Army prosecutors in Nuremberg feverishly searched for the same criminal scientists who were being recruited secretly by combined Army and Navy intelligence units in Washington. All with the blessings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

The Army prosecutors operated under the authority of the International War Crimes Tribunal Charter. The U.S. Intelligence recruiters were managed by the Pentagon's small but powerful Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (CIOS).

The mediator between these two opposing camps was John J. McCloy, assistant secretary of war and chairman of the State-War-Navy Coordinating Committee (SWNCC). He saw no conflict in his assignment. To his mind, the Nazi scientists were not war criminals because they were useful to America. Besides, he was determined to prevent the Russians from getting these "rare minds."

In the U.S. Zone of Occupied Germany, the Army's Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC), together with Military Government, had the task of finding, shielding and interrogating the designated Nazi scientists. Some were already on trial in German courts, but Military Government intervened, and they "disappeared" into Paperclip.

The chosen Nazis were secretly assembled in Bavaria for interrogation. They proudly described their unethical (often deadly) operations, which often pleased the American scientists, since such criminal experiments yielded valuable data using methods prohibited back home.

Their interrogators recorded all the crimes and then assessed their characters, compiling an incriminating secret dossier for each man. That file followed each scientist for the rest of his American career, but the contents were later changed with forgeries when necessary.

The Pentagon offered short-term employment contracts. In one case, an entire Nazi group of doctors remained in Heidelberg and secretly continued their work as the "AAF Aero Medical Center" under U.S. supervision for two years. Hitler's portraits were replaced with President Truman.

Eventually, small groups of scientists and technicians were shipped to various U.S. ports of entry. No visa, No passports. No questions. In time they were joined by their families.

The War Department's Bureau of Public Relations issued a muted, three-paragraph press release datelined October 1, 1945, and headlined, "Outstanding German Scientists Being Brought to U.S."

The third paragraph played with the truth: "Throughout their temporary stay in the United States these German scientists and technical experts will be utilized for appropriate military projects of the Army and Navy." No mention of "Nazis."

No cries of public outrage. Americans were distracted, preparing for their first postwar Thanksgiving and Christmas celebrations. And the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal was headline news.

But a year later, the situation was different, as I'll report in Part 2. Please stay tuned.
In early 1945, a top-secret, unauthorized plot was... (show quote)


Great Report, looking forward to the next part.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 21:02:40   #
Hal81 Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
 
It was a toss up between the US and the Commies who got the top scientists. The Germans were so far ahead of us in weapons development It wasn't funny. Hitler was a mad man and though he could win on all fronts at the same time. He had his troops spread way to thin. He refused to lessen to his own generals. Lucky for us.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 23:17:45   #
BamaTexan Loc: Deep in the heart of Texas
 
Albert - NZ wrote:
Why does'nt War Criminals apply to the winner of a war? I would say that Harry Truman would have been on top of the list. Deny it?



Tell us about your twisted logic.

Reply
Sep 8, 2017 23:25:13   #
BamaTexan Loc: Deep in the heart of Texas
 
Keep 'em coming Richard, thank you.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 4 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.