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.jpeg compression
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Jul 21, 2017 19:47:01   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
Bison Bud wrote:
Maybe a stupid question and I think that I know the answer, but I'm going to ask it here for clarification anyway. We all know that the .jpeg format compresses the picture data and that the data deleted is gone forever unless otherwise backed up with another type file that doesn't use compression. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. Anyway, this compression obviously takes place when the original edited RAW file is converted to .jpeg, but does this also happen every time I make a copy of the .jpeg file? If I do a simple file copy to move a .jpeg file from one location to another, do I get the complete original .jpeg data or is it compressed again even if the picture is unedited?
Maybe a stupid question and I think that I know th... (show quote)

No, just moving or copying a jpeg from one- to a different location, does not change the data, or add additional compression, it does so however, if you in the process have to save it again!

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Jul 21, 2017 19:53:24   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
Bison Bud wrote:
Thanks, I now know that compression only occurs with a save or change in the file, which is what I thought, but was not sure. This is good news as I have been archiving my edited photos in the .jpeg format and .tiff files take up a lot of room. Thanks for the prompt and informative responses!

Being all that said, then you should also know to not archive your photos in the jpeg format, as been already mentioned numerous times, any additional changes/saves will cause further detoriation of your files!

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Jul 21, 2017 20:07:57   #
Bison Bud
 
Wow, I didn't mean to start an argument on the virtues of editing RAW verses .JPEG! However, I have done quite a bit of editing with .Jpegs. In fact my first digtal camera only took .Jpegs, but I have since found that editing RAW files is far easier and more effective. My real purpose here was determine if my archive files that were edited as raw then converted to a JPEG were being compressed further when moved by file copy procedures. I think that it is a common practice to edit RAW then covert to JPEG for convenience and to save storage space, but maybe I should reconsider that as well in favor of .TIFF or similar low loss file formats. How about some feedback on what others do out there for archive storage. I always save my unedited raw files but have been saving my edited files as jpegs. I'd appreciate some feedback in that area without folks getting too worked up about it.

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Jul 21, 2017 20:12:31   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Bison Bud wrote:
Wow, I didn't mean to start an argument on the virtues of editing RAW verses .JPEG! However, I have done quite a bit of editing with .Jpegs. In fact my first digtal camera only took .Jpegs, but I have since found that editing RAW files is far easier and more effective. My real purpose here was determine if my archive files that were edited as raw then converted to a JPEG were being compressed further when moved by file copy procedures. I think that it is a common practice to edit RAW then covert to JPEG for convenience and to save storage space, but maybe I should reconsider that as well in favor of .TIFF or similar low loss file formats. How about some feedback on what others do out there for archive storage. I always save my unedited raw files but have been saving my edited files as jpegs. I'd appreciate some feedback in that area without folks getting too worked up about it.
Wow, I didn't mean to start an argument on the vir... (show quote)


I don't archive jpegs. As a Lightroom user, it is far more efficient for me to keep the raw file, the working PSD (or TIFF), and a dozen or so export presets that allow me to export a number of different formats for different purposes - social media, clients, print labs, website, Flickr, email, etc. Since I make a habit of not editing jpegs (or other output/delivery formats), I have no need to keep those files. If I need them I just use the corresponding export preset.

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Jul 21, 2017 20:58:26   #
whitewolfowner
 
Gene51 wrote:
Why are you continuing to insist that I am believing that jpegs are better than raw. I haven't shot a jpeg since 2006. Again, what the hell are you talking about?


You said it, I didn't. More ignorance cover up here.

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Jul 21, 2017 20:59:05   #
whitewolfowner
 
Gene51 wrote:
Why are you continuing to insist that I am believing that jpegs are better than raw. I haven't shot a jpeg since 2006. Again, what the hell are you talking about?


More ignorance cover up here; you're the one that said it.

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Jul 21, 2017 21:00:45   #
whitewolfowner
 
Gene51 wrote:
Jpegs are allowed in forensic work, but they can be shot as tiff in certain cameras. There is no "law" that says an image cannot be altered. Images can be altered to enhance the view/detail. You can adjust color, contrast, crop, sharpening, brightness, blur removal, etc. The key is to be able to record the most amount of detail and preserve it through the processing of the image. And of course, the original image must be preserved, unedited, to present alongside the edited one. Lossy formats, like jpeg are discouraged for some applications. When submitting any image that has been digitally enhanced, a journal specifying what adjustments were made must be presented along with the original.

Out of camera jpegs shot at large size and highest quality are often used by law enforcement and the legal system.

You can read about the process and exactly what is and what is not allowed here:

https://www.swgit.org/pdf/Section%201%20Overview%20of%20SWGIT%20and%20the%20Use%20of%20Imaging%20Technology%20in%20the%20Criminal%20Justice%20System?docID=35

https://www.swgit.org/pdf/Section%203%20Field%20Photography%20Equipment%20and%20Supporting%20Infrastructure?docID=47

https://www.swgit.org/pdf/Section%201%20Overview%20of%20SWGIT%20and%20the%20Use%20of%20Imaging%20Technology%20in%20the%20Criminal%20Justice%20System?docID=35

You are not making any sense, obviously have not done any of this kind of work, and have no basis for making any of the criticisms you are leveling at me. I suggest you quit while you are ahead. You are making less and less sense with each post.
Jpegs are allowed in forensic work, but they can b... (show quote)



Again, you're the one that said in forensic work altering a photo is not allowed. Wow, you belong on the Big Bang Theory with the other nerds.

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Jul 21, 2017 21:01:14   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
whitewolfowner wrote:
You said it, I didn't. More ignorance cover up here.


Bless your heart!

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Jul 21, 2017 21:06:28   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
That may be true, but the forum is also for answering questions that are asked. Those answers should address the subject of the question without clouding it with superfluous non-related topics.
--Bob
whitewolfowner wrote:
This whole forum is about shooting better photos and helping those that are trying to learn or are uninformed.

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Jul 21, 2017 21:06:59   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
whitewolfowner wrote:
Again, you're the one that said in forensic work altering a photo is not allowed. Wow, you belong on the Big Bang Theory with the other nerds.


Ok, you won one - sorta. Are you happy? By altering I was thinking of making substantive changes to the content of an image in some cases. Never said it is never allowed - I know better than that. And you clearly agreed when you stated that altering a photo is against the law. So which is it? You can't have it both ways. You either agree that images can't be altered or you agree that they can. Read what I write and don't put words in my mouth. Cluelessness (sp?) is not a virtue in most circles.

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Jul 21, 2017 22:31:37   #
Salo Loc: Cherry Hill, NJ
 
Copying any file to another location is a byte by byte (actually bit by bit) CPU "move" process. Unless something completely unforseen happens, like your drive crashes, the data at the two locations is identical. No compression, no losses.

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Jul 21, 2017 22:32:12   #
whitewolfowner
 
Gene51 wrote:
Ok, you won one - sorta. Are you happy? By altering I was thinking of making substantive changes to the content of an image in some cases. Never said it is never allowed - I know better than that. And you clearly agreed when you stated that altering a photo is against the law. So which is it? You can't have it both ways. You either agree that images can't be altered or you agree that they can. Read what I write and don't put words in my mouth. Cluelessness (sp?) is not a virtue in most circles.




I wasn't agreeing with you; I was accepting your statement. I have not worked with the police since the early 1980's when they wanted me to fraud (alter it's contents by putting truck tires where car tires were) a photo for them to convict someone. I walked away and never looked back. They never forgave me for that either.

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Jul 22, 2017 02:07:06   #
le boecere
 
rmalarz wrote:
First off, Cat's statement is quite accurate and complete. It has nothing to do with RAW, and neither does this thread.
--Bob


(Yup, Cat's statement is quite accurate, and quite clear. I learned long ago [in sales]; people tend to not read, and not listen.)

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Jul 22, 2017 05:48:07   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
Bison Bud wrote:
Maybe a stupid question and I think that I know the answer, but I'm going to ask it here for clarification anyway. We all know that the .jpeg format compresses the picture data and that the data deleted is gone forever unless otherwise backed up with another type file that doesn't use compression. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. Anyway, this compression obviously takes place when the original edited RAW file is converted to .jpeg, but does this also happen every time I make a copy of the .jpeg file? If I do a simple file copy to move a .jpeg file from one location to another, do I get the complete original .jpeg data or is it compressed again even if the picture is unedited?
Maybe a stupid question and I think that I know th... (show quote)


There's no more compression, but theoretically, every time a JPEG is modified and saved, it loses a bit of quality. As a test, I edited and saved a JPEG over 100 times, and I couldn't see any difference between the first and the last.

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Jul 22, 2017 06:40:04   #
NorthPacific
 
jerryc41 wrote:
There's no more compression, but theoretically, every time a JPEG is modified and saved, it loses a bit of quality. As a test, I edited and saved a JPEG over 100 times, and I couldn't see any difference between the first and the last.


Thank you...This should STOP yet another UHH JPEG vs RAW open range gunfight....

Ironically RAWs have to be converted to JPEG anyway in order to use them in a common manner.....and it seems like the color bit depth advantage goes flying out the window as well....

But what you stated here should be erected as a monument in New York Harbor next to the Statue of Liberty for all those who are put to shame for DARING to shoot only in JPEG....as many professionals do to keep their workflow productive and useful.

We are talking dog whistle stuff here and saying for example that the engineers at SONY had no idea adding an extra fine JPEG setting choice on my A77 Mark II camera to further reduce compression means they are out of touch with reality...

So again thanks for silencing the RAW True Believers on this site at least for a few minutes. You just made my morning!!!

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