POLL Which is more ridiculous? (Page 13): Of course, but when the protesting is against innocent victims, i.e., the returning military, then it is misguided and does more harm than...

usnpilot Loc: Ft Myers Fl

Twardlow wrote:

And the protesters felt every bit a valuable, and as responsible, and as needed. It wasn't the soldiers' idea to fight or go to Vietnam, but the citizens have a constitutional right to seek redress from their government.

That's part of what you were fighting for, in' it?

Of course, but when the protesting is against innocent victims, i.e., the returning military, then it is misguided and does more harm than good. How many mentally injured Vietnam Vets were further damaged by the reception they received when they returned? Again, that's my problem with demonstrating against the military. In my opinion, those who choose the wrong target are criminals. If they caused one suicide, they should be held accountable. I learned a long time ago that actions have consequences. Many today have not learned that. Someday they will.

Twardlow Loc: Arkansas

letmedance wrote:

That is right Tom the citizens have the right to seek whatever in the hell they want from the Govt, not from the returning armed forces.

They have the right to seek redress from their government; you're changing the topic to something else.

Twardlow Loc: Arkansas

usnpilot wrote:

Of course, but when the protesting is against inno... (show quote)

I'm sorry, but it was a rotten deal all the way around. You had to go to follow the dishonest dictates of your government, others protested the honest dictates of conscience.

We supported successive corrupt governments, killed massive numbers of innocent civilians, abused our own military, paved the country with Agent Orange--that must be a war crime!--and got our asses soundly kicked.

It was a bad deal, it had to stop, and it had to be stopped.

BTW, I was not in the military and I was not a protester. It was a stinkin' war, in a stinkin' place, fought for stinkin' reasons.

Democracies do not do well in limited wars, which is why we can't get out of the Middle East. Democracies can only end wars with victories, and in the wars in question we can't even define victory or when we're victorious.

It's still a stinkin' business.

usnpilot Loc: Ft Myers Fl

Twardlow wrote:

They have the right to seek redress from their government; you're changing the topic to something else.

If you would read the last several posts you would see that was the topic, probably not your topic choice, but it was.

letmedance Loc: Walnut, Ca.

Twardlow wrote:

They have the right to seek redress from their government; you're changing the topic to something else.

I am addressing your words Tom not changing a topic. The protesting belonged in the Chambers of American Govt, not in the faces of the returning military.

Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio

nakkh wrote:

Ok let's take the 105 number. Is that acceptable to blast 105 innocent people out of existence?
Hint: no.
If a country did that to Americans in the US would that make the headlines?
Hint: Yes, America would be losing its collective shit.

Trump is not being careful at all, and the increased number of innocent deaths
it will blow back and be used as a ISIS recruitment tool.

You are correct, no number of innocent deaths is good, but it is not correct to exaggerate either.

nakkh Loc: San Mateo, Ca

If we stay a thousand years in that shit hole it won't change a thing.
We just create more martyrs every day by being there.

usnpilot wrote:

And Obama's pull out allowed for the rise of ISIS, and yes, I know that withdrawal was negotiated by Bush, but Obama had the ability to delay it. He even provided arms to ISIS, indirectly.
It's obvious you know nothing about war, according to you, Roosevelt and Truman should be blamed for 100's of 1000's of civilian deaths in WWII. Truman would, in your small mind, be considered a war criminal for dropping the nukes. Your rational is idiotic.

Remember Viet Nam? 50,000+ killed for no reason?
Beirut? After the Marine barracks got obliterated by terrorists,
Raygun pulled out. Remember? Do you?

Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio

I'd like to add something to all this Vietnam War talk. Many people seem to think that it is accepted conventional wisdom that "the reasons for the war were stupid." I don't see protecting people from being massacred by their neighbors as being stupid. You may rightfully argue that we have no responsibility to protect other countries or people, or that we can't do it efficiently, or that we just don't feel like sacrificing for them, but I don't know how you can argue that it is morally wrong. Even if the original reasons were flawed, like the fake Bay of Tonkin story, the fact is that South Vietnam was being overrun by Communists for no other reason than to control or destroy them.

If I were living in a Third World Country being invaded by genocidal monsters, I would rejoice to high heaven if some foreigners came in to save my life and society. Am I just too naive about this?

phcaan Loc: Willow Springs, MO

Twardlow wrote:

And the protesters felt every bit a valuable, and as responsible, and as needed. It wasn't the soldiers' idea to fight or go to Vietnam, but the citizens have a constitutional right to seek redress from their government.

That's part of what you were fighting for, in' it?

And where exactly does that encompass spitting and cursing at men who were not sniveling cowards and answered the call of their country? Demonstrating is one thing, but the filthy unwashed dirtbags that spit on me and others were not demonstrating, they were disgusting, and from that I got all the understanding I needed for the left. I will say that those who assaulted me will remember the experience for the rest of their lives, and I found the experience quite gratifying.

usnpilot Loc: Ft Myers Fl

Steven Seward wrote:

I'd like to add something to all this Vietnam War ... (show quote)

Well put. And to add to that, we lost less than 4000 in the Pearl Harbor attack yet we lost over 100,000 fighting back knowing Japan was not a threat to our mainland. We love being the sheriff.

Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio

phcaan wrote:

And where exactly does that encompass spitting and cursing at men who were not sniveling cowards and answered the call of their country? Demonstrating is one thing, but the filthy unwashed dirtbags that spit on me and others were not demonstrating, they were disgusting, and from that I got all the understanding I needed for the left. I will say that those who assaulted me will remember the experience for the rest of their lives, and I found the experience quite gratifying.

I've often heard that all the Vietnam War protests stopped as soon as the draft was eliminated. If so, that would say a lot about the self-serving motivations of the protesters.

usnpilot Loc: Ft Myers Fl

[quote=Steven Seward]I've often heard that all the Vietnam War protests stopped as soon as the draft was eliminated. If so, that would say a lot about the self-serving motivations of the protesters.[/quote

Not so, it ended two months later when the last of the troops pulled out. But you were close.

Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio

usnpilot wrote:

Not so, it ended two months later when the last of the troops pulled out. But you were close.

I didn't quite understand your timeline. Are you saying the protests ended two months after the draft was eliminated?

usnpilot Loc: Ft Myers Fl

Steven Seward wrote:

I didn't quite understand your timeline. Are you saying the protests ended two months after the draft was eliminated?

The protests had very little to do with the end of the war. It had much more to do with the financial drain on the country, as well as many other factors, including the resurgence of China. The way the protesting was aimed had more to do with increased mental problems of veterans than anything else. Cudos to the protesters.

Steven Seward Loc: Cleveland, Ohio

usnpilot wrote:

The protests had very little to do with the end of the war. It had much more to do with the financial drain on the country, as well as many other factors, including the resurgence of China. The way the protesting was aimed had more to do with increased mental problems of veterans than anything else. Cudos to the protesters.

This is all somewhat new to me. I don't remember any protests that were about financial drain, but I was 15 years old when the war ended and I didn't pay much attention to the news back then (as I don't pay much attention to it today!)