le boecere

Your words: "A sensor is a sensor."

So, I'm reading this as "all sensors are the same".

Assuming I'm reading your statement in the correct context, then (likewise) are all processors the same?

_Rookie

le boecere

Your words (Bill): "So as long as Canikon cripple their "lesser" APS-C/DX formats, by not going all - out on plenty of the *lenses* made specifically for them, they truly will be limited.

Fujifilm, Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony have taken a very different approach. All four make both budget and pro quality lenses for their mirrorless camera systems."

Very interesting and educational for this rookie. I don't remember seeing or reading this, before.

Thank you.

markjay

Lets not generalize with this new cute - but absurd word - Canikon.
These 2 companies and products are no longer in the same league. Canon is light years ahead of Nikon. Lets not confuse that by putting them together as the same animal.
Micro 4/3 is a smaller lens than aps/c. Will not last long term. Maybe even aps/c will not last long term. As sensor pries keep coming down, it will eventually become too cheap for manufacturers to simply make everything as a FF. So the smaller formal lenses may become antiques. Be careful !!

wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado

Unless you are seeing marketing reports that the rest of us can not find, the trend is to smaller, lighter, and less costly. The mirrorless market meets that criteria and is holding its own. Sony's new A9 can shoot 20fps with no image cutoff by the EVF. Can Nikon and Canon do the same? Olympus can shoot sixty 20mp RAW shots a second. Can Nikon and Canon do the same? Fujifilm has two or three of the best and smallest APS-Cs in the market. Can Nikon and Canon say the same? Panasonic's new GH5 has some of the markets best video capabilities. Can Nikon and Canon say the same?

Again, the camera market is still shrinking while Fuji, Sony, Olympus, and Panasonic are holding their own. This can only mean that Canon and Nikon sales are taking a hit which is supported by their report of sales. It is going to be interesting to see how they change from DSLR to mirrorless without alienating their loyal customer or obsoleting the older equipment. If they don't change, they will risk becoming a name in the history books.

markjay

First of all - lets not contemplate our navels here.
When was the last time you were shooting at 20fps ?
People get obsessed with technical capabilities they dont need. WHO needs that ? Maybe if you are a sports photographer. Thats it.
And even then - you know what ... shoot a video and then just grab the frame you want for a picture.
Guess what - my camera can shoot 60 fps in video mode !

Lets talk about these other mirrorless producers. They all make a LARGE line of cameras. And most people are buyingh the low end - not the high end. Maybe you are interested in a Fuji XT-2 - but you know what. 99% of the world isnt. They are buying cheaper point and shhots that dont even have an EVF. Why do you think they make so many cameras without EVF's ???? BEcause people want them !!!!!

Thats where the market is heading. Canon decided to not get into the mirrorless market so fast - because thay are only interested in the high end replacing tyrue DSLr's - and the market isnt really there yet. That is not Fuhji's bread and butter - even if they make a good product. They are selling cheap cameras. And same for SONY --- more sales on the low end than the new A9. Believe me - those A9's are not running out of the stores.

So the camera market is shrinking - yes - why ????? Because everyone now has a camera in their pocket. Its called a phone. People that used to buy cameras are no longer buying them ! So the whole market is shrinking - but that does not mean that Canon is not keeping up --- but who knows about Nikon. Yes - they are falling behind as I had said in my original post.

I would be that within 2 years Canon has a line of mirrorless that the other guys cant compete with. They know the market better than anyone. They are not stupid. do you think Fuji knows more than Canon. no. Canon just doesnt want to compete on the low end mirrorless, and the higher end mirrorless is now finally arriving --- and it will take over from DSLr's. Do you think Canon is sitting back and waiting for that - or do you think they have plans ?

wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado

The last time that I shot at top speed was last week. Last week I shot a short line of 20mp RAW + JPEG at top speed several times at a birthday party. And that is not a small file video that I am shooting. Most of the time I was shooting single shots, but there were times for capturing some of the action in full image capacity. I very rarely get to shoot sports.

wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado

I would hope that both Canon and Nikon would have plans. I not sure they are going to execute them in time. Canon's sale of their M5 seems to be luke warm at best in their third outing into the mirrorless market while Fuji sales are better than luke warm. I realize that sales are not necessarily the bottom line, but in a shrinking market they can be indicative of how well the company is surviving.

Olympus sold out the E-M1mrII upon their release in our area. I personally felt lucky to be able to have reserved the last one in our area fifteen days before their release. I am sure that it is similar for the GH5. Sony's A9 is a much more expensive so it will sell slower (one can buy two E-M1s for the same price and still have a little change left over). I can buy three 300mm f4s (same angle of view as a FF 600mm) for the the price of a Canon or Nikon 600mm f4, have handholdable stabilization, a much smaller size and weight, sacrifice no image quality, and still have a bunch of change left over.

But all that means nothing if there are no sales. This is what makes me wonder whether or not Canon and Nikon will surivie.

RobbieAB Loc: UK

And Canon shipped almost half the total interchangable lens cameras shipped in the latest figures.

By sales figures, I don't think Canon need to be concerned. Maybe this is simply brand inertia, but holding 50% of a market that supposedly has more than 3 competitors is pretty amazing. It's also worth noting that DSLRs used in live-view mode are, essentially, mirrorless cameras.

Nikon are in a very different position to Canon as Nikon are dependent on Sony for their sensors. Sony could put a pretty large dent in Nikon by simply cutting off the flow of sensors, as they are, supposedly, already doing for their "top of the line" silicon.

markjay

Yes.

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Pure FUD. (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt propaganda)

The demographics of enthusiast photographers are getting older and more female, and more frail, and they (we) travel more, too. Advantage: mirrorless. Pros are getting more and more video jobs. Advantage: mirrorless. Sales curves show dSLR sales are down, while mirrorless sales are only flat. R&D is proceeding at a brisk clip at Fujifilm, Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony. They make the leading mirrorless gear.

Meanwhile smartphone sales dwarf (other) camera sales.

What makes you think a larger lens will last longer? Materials used in construction are far more important than size.

I used both Canons and Nikons for four decades. They're subtly different, each having some advantages over the other, but nothing dramatically so. In real life, the difference in camera brands and formats is marginal, while the difference in PHOTOGRAPHERS is huge.

I'm as guilty as anyone here of splitting hairs, and losing that perspective, so let's go out and use our cameras!

markjay

Hate to say it - but this seems to be a somewhat sexist post ,,,,

Is this what we're thinking now !... " enthusiast photographers are getting older and more female, and more frail ...".

We think of women photographers as old and frail ?

Does anyone have any statistics to support this claim ? I see no evidence of this ??

Streets Loc: Euless, TX.

Unless we are talking about framed 20x30 glossies of resolution charts, all of this kind of s--t is really ridiculous.

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Canon's market share hasn't been this LOW in a long time. I can recall seeing figures at the PMAI show back when they had over 70% of the market. There was a time when Canon and Nikon together had nearly 90% of the market. Nikon has slipped to #3, behind Sony.

dSLRs in live-view mode are *nothing like* mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras have electronic viewfinders. You can pull focus with your fingertip on the OLED screen, while viewing through the EVF.

There are still *very* important roles for dSLRs, but they are certainly not "best" for everything. If I were a pro sports photographer, or I needed VERY large, HIGHLY detailed prints of products or landscapes, I would have a high end Canon or Nikon (or maybe a high-end FF Sony mirrorless).

However, if you need both stills and video from the same system, as I do, there are much better options than dSLRs. Ten years ago, I was carrying a Canon dSLR and a Canon camcorder. Together, in their cases, they took up six times the volume as my Lumix GH4 system. I now do a better job, in half the time, with a lot less gear and fooling around. I get 4K video, great audio recording, easy audio monitoring, and I can extract stills from the video that look great up to 11x14. The GH5 refines the experience and workflow, so I'll add one when the price (probably) drops next year.

If you haven't seen what these cameras can do, watch this video in 4K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoYbqSxPWrA ("Hand Cut" is a film by Griffin Hammond, about ice used in New York bars. It was recorded in 4K 60P using a prototype GH5 and 12mm f/1.7 and 12-35mm f/2.8 lenses.)

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

The shift started in the early 2000s, and has been very well documented by industry insiders. For many years, researchers at the University of Michigan and PMAI tracked the shift in the market. PMAI is now defunct, but other industry sources still track the data. Check out this video: https://lensvid.com/gear/lensvid-exclusive-happened-photography-industry-2016/

When I first started attending PMA (later PMAI) shows in 1995, the market for SLR cameras was mostly middle-aged men. By the mid-2000s, the dSLR market had two prominent groups: young mothers, collectively known then as "Debbie Digital" by the industry marketing folks, and older middle aged men (Boomers and Traditionals). Gen-X and Millennial women were identified as the largest growing segment of the pro market when I attended PPA and SEPCON in 2006. That trend has continued.

In my former industry (school portraiture), the digital revolution saw most of the older photographers — men and women — QUIT, RETIRE, or GIVE UP. They were replaced mostly by young, computer-literate women. Why did they quit? Well, most of them couldn't type, which meant they were highly intimidated by computers, which meant they couldn't do half their new jobs. We had the same issues in the lab, where 75 of our most loyal employees refused to update their skills for free (we offered to pay for their courses).

If you track where these photographers are now, they are older, more frail, and the group has more females. Many don't want to carry full frame dSLRs with heavy zoom lenses.

I have a DVD in my desk from PhotoVision. It's about 8 or 10 years old, and shows a mother-daughter photography team in the midwest going through a senior portrait session or two. BOTH women had carpal tunnel syndrome, as evidence by their use of wrist braces. They were using Canon 5D Mark IIs and 70-200mm EF-L f/2.8 IS zooms. Heck, I had carpal tunnel symptoms back in the 1980s, from carrying a Nikon F3 with motor drive and a 70-200mm zoom!

So, given less market tolerance for heavy gear, and the development of smaller, lighter, and in some cases better gear, what do you see as the trend?

billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont

My Nikon 12-24 f4 DX IS ONE OF THE SHARPEST LENSES OUT THERE, SAME WITH THE 10-24 DX. Your statement about DX lenses is misleading. And the Nikon 18-200 DX is extremely sharp throughout it's range.