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The Merits of RAW over JPEG: the Truth Exposed (pun intended)
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Nov 14, 2016 17:26:46   #
Reinaldokool Loc: San Rafael, CA
 
JohnFrim wrote:
There are at least 3 topics that get debated ad-nauseam on UHH:
1) Should I buy Nikon or Canon or Sony or… ?
2) Should I use Mac or PC?
3) Should I shoot RAW or JPEG?
The first two really come down to personal preference, but surely we can get objective evidence to resolve number three.

I recently switched to shooting RAW+JPEG but do not consider myself expert enough to demonstrate the benefits. I am just getting familiar with a few programs that can work with RAW files, but as some folks have already pointed out the image on the monitor often looks much the same regardless of which file is used as the source. I think the problem for me is not really understanding when the JPEG SOOC is good enough as a starting point for minor adjustments, or when I really should dig into the RAW file to significantly improve a less-than-stellar image.

I would like to ask the PP experts out there to post examples that demonstrate unequivocally the benefits of working with the RAW file. I would like to see 3 separate versions of a single image:
a) the SOOC JPEG image;
b) the adjusted SOOC JPEG; and
c) the image derived from developing/processing the RAW file.

To do this fairly I think there should be a few ground rules as follows:
1) the image must have been shot as a single image that was stored in RAW+JPEG file format;
2) the JPEG must have been saved at the highest quality possible in the camera;
3) the JPEG SOOC should show clear signs of requiring adjustment to improve the image (e.g., white balance, dark shadows, blown highlights, etc);
4) both the JPEG and the RAW file should be post-processed using the same software program and the same adjustment tools to show that it is not the processing software, but rather the richness of the image information in the RAW file, that results in a better final image; and
5) the software being used and the “fixes” being applied should be described.

OK, one concession: if there is something extra special that can be done to the RAW file that cannot be done to the JPEG, then post that superior image along with notes on the processing.

So, have at it!!! Convince me – and a lot of hoggers contemplating a major change in workflow – that shooting RAW is the better way to go.

Thanks. JF
There are at least 3 topics that get debated i ad... (show quote)


Wow. That's a big ask. I really don't care whether you shoot RAW or Jpeg. There is sufficient information on the web already. I do not shoot snapshots for Facebook or Instagram, I do photography. This means I ALWAYS get a better result than a jpeg but, more importantly, I can make my own decisions and not depend on that camera engineers to make them for me. I operate on the principle that I never throw away information. If I decide that a particular shot is worthy of being printed or viewed, then I want all the photons to count.

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Nov 14, 2016 17:47:34   #
dbWrangler Loc: Sacramento, CA
 
raw photos vs jpeg In google. This is a good place to start

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Nov 14, 2016 18:07:05   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
JohnFrim wrote:
There are at least 3 topics that get debated ad-nauseam on UHH:
1) Should I buy Nikon or Canon or Sony or… ?
2) Should I use Mac or PC?
3) Should I shoot RAW or JPEG?
The first two really come down to personal preference, but surely we can get objective evidence to resolve number three.

I recently switched to shooting RAW+JPEG but do not consider myself expert enough to demonstrate the benefits. I am just getting familiar with a few programs that can work with RAW files, but as some folks have already pointed out the image on the monitor often looks much the same regardless of which file is used as the source. I think the problem for me is not really understanding when the JPEG SOOC is good enough as a starting point for minor adjustments, or when I really should dig into the RAW file to significantly improve a less-than-stellar image.

I would like to ask the PP experts out there to post examples that demonstrate unequivocally the benefits of working with the RAW file. I would like to see 3 separate versions of a single image:
a) the SOOC JPEG image;
b) the adjusted SOOC JPEG; and
c) the image derived from developing/processing the RAW file.

To do this fairly I think there should be a few ground rules as follows:
1) the image must have been shot as a single image that was stored in RAW+JPEG file format;
2) the JPEG must have been saved at the highest quality possible in the camera;
3) the JPEG SOOC should show clear signs of requiring adjustment to improve the image (e.g., white balance, dark shadows, blown highlights, etc);
4) both the JPEG and the RAW file should be post-processed using the same software program and the same adjustment tools to show that it is not the processing software, but rather the richness of the image information in the RAW file, that results in a better final image; and
5) the software being used and the “fixes” being applied should be described.

OK, one concession: if there is something extra special that can be done to the RAW file that cannot be done to the JPEG, then post that superior image along with notes on the processing.

So, have at it!!! Convince me – and a lot of hoggers contemplating a major change in workflow – that shooting RAW is the better way to go.

Thanks. JF
There are at least 3 topics that get debated i ad... (show quote)


I shoot with Fuji. The jpegs are so good that raw gives little or no advantages in most situations.

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Nov 14, 2016 18:38:36   #
whitewolfowner
 
CatMarley wrote:
I shoot with Fuji. The jpegs are so good that raw gives little or no advantages in most situations.




That only shows that you have weak post processing skills.

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Nov 14, 2016 18:44:03   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
selmslie wrote:
There are plenty of us here willing to help the OP and others who are interested.

You have made your negative point. If you don't have anything positive to contribute, why are you still here?

Why not just move on to another thread?


I think you're missing the point of the original question. The goal is to force raw shooters to prove the useful of raw using the end results of a couple of images. Whether or not the the OP set the conditions based on his ignorance of the subject, or its intended to show that shooting raw adds no value, its the same end result. No matter what anyone posts, someone will say they can get similar results in jpeg only. The only way to appreciate the value and flexibility of raw is to actually use it.

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Nov 14, 2016 18:53:27   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
starlifter wrote:
I'm sorry I just think the camera and the person take a picture not some doctored manipulation from a computer. Dogin a black a black and white film days is one thing. But all this PP is getting out of hand. If you can't compose and set up a shot with out relying on a computer to
fix your mistakes your not a photographer , your a graphics/ computer artist.


I hate to tell you this but the image straight our of your camera is as much a product of computer post processing as an raw image coming out of a post processing program on your computer. The main difference is that the results SOOC give you far less control over the final image than a post processed raw file. If you think that SOOC is somehow more pure you're fooling yourself. Its just the product of a less sophisticated internal computer and software in your camera which gives you less control on the end results.

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Nov 14, 2016 18:58:34   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
whitewolfowner wrote:
That only shows that you have weak post processing skills.


That's not necessarily true. She may be perfectly happy with the jpegs she's getting. Not everyone wants or needs post processing.

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Nov 14, 2016 19:00:42   #
cambriaman Loc: Central CA Coast
 
Ron is correct. RAW is all about potential. You can make a gloriously better image or convert it into trash. Anything worth doing is worth doing well.....take the time and learn to use the tool. It's not a hammer.

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Nov 14, 2016 19:02:41   #
chaman
 
whitewolfowner wrote:
That only shows that you have weak post processing skills.


Nailed it. That is called rationalization. In this case since I cannot process a RAW file effectively I might as well give up since its not much more different than a plain JPG and just lower my standards of IQ. A lot of these folks also LOVE to shoot AUTO ISO since they can never fully understand the basics of exposure.

A RAW file has a LOT of more data and if you have some average ability to discriminate tonalities and subtle hues and saturations the difference should be evident. Thats if you have the eye for it.

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Nov 14, 2016 19:16:06   #
bwana Loc: Bergen, Alberta, Canada
 
chaman wrote:
No one needs to convince you. There is more than enough info out there that proves the benefits of shooting RAW. If you are intimidated or are not willing to LEARN to PROPERLY use the software of your choice that is your problem. Focus on learning the basics of a decent image. When you do you will get why RAW is superior.



As for "4) both the JPEG and the RAW file should be post-processed using the same software program and the same adjustment tools to show that it is not the processing software, but rather the richness of the image information in the RAW file, that results in a better final image". Tools can work differently on RAW and JPG's, so not really applicable.

bwa

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Nov 14, 2016 19:23:42   #
Lundberg02
 
If your monitor isn't calibrated and profiled, the benefits of RAW may not even be visible to you.

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Nov 14, 2016 19:34:57   #
whitewolfowner
 
mwsilvers wrote:
That's not necessarily true. She may be perfectly happy with the jpegs she's getting. Not everyone wants or needs post processing.



That's not what she said; she said she could hardly see the difference between a jpeg and a fixed raw file. That indicates poor post processing skills as I said.

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Nov 14, 2016 19:35:35   #
whitewolfowner
 
chaman wrote:
Nailed it. That is called rationalization. In this case since I cannot process a RAW file effectively I might as well give up since its not much more different than a plain JPG and just lower my standards of IQ. A lot of these folks also LOVE to shoot AUTO ISO since they can never fully understand the basics of exposure.

A RAW file has a LOT of more data and if you have some average ability to discriminate tonalities and subtle hues and saturations the difference should be evident. Thats if you have the eye for it.
Nailed it. That is called rationalization. In this... (show quote)



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Nov 14, 2016 19:36:50   #
RobertAltman Loc: Minneapolis
 
I am interested in this discussion as well. I recently started shooting DSLR after a 25-year vacation from 35mm film; in still trying to figure out the when and why of doing my own post processing versus developing my shooting skills and creative vision.

In particular, I have no idea WHICH pictures would benefit from post processing and what I would want to accomplish. It's a double-blind spot. I don't know what to do or how to do it, so I read and learn and hope it makes sense.

But please don't put down those who are struggling through the quagmire. If you can help, help; if you don't want to, don't.

"Asked and answered" just leaves us wondering "where and what". Asked if we haven't done the research, it might be because we are completely lost in the subject, looking for an on-ramp.

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Nov 14, 2016 19:36:57   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
chaman wrote:
Nailed it. That is called rationalization. In this case since I cannot process a RAW file effectively I might as well give up since its not much more different than a plain JPG and just lower my standards of IQ. A lot of these folks also LOVE to shoot AUTO ISO since they can never fully understand the basics of exposure.

A RAW file has a LOT of more data and if you have some average ability to discriminate tonalities and subtle hues and saturations the difference should be evident. Thats if you have the eye for it.
Nailed it. That is called rationalization. In this... (show quote)

You really should try a Fuji before slinging mud. The JPEGs are phenomenal from those cameras.

Raw evangelists are ignorant of one thing: Getting great JPEG files in camera is actually MORE difficult than getting them from raw files. It takes a lot of discipline, technique, knowledge, and experience to do it consistently. Raw capture with post processing makes it easier for rookies to get great results.

Truth be known, pros record more JPEGs than raw files. But the good ones know when to use one or the other, and we switch back and forth as required.

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