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May 7, 2012 08:29:08   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
Creation Science: Let's see hmmmmm all this seems so orderly someone must have made it!

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May 7, 2012 08:52:43   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
ole sarg wrote:
Creation Science: Let's see hmmmmm all this seems so orderly someone must have made it!

Interestingly, our creationist brethren never seem to get around to a precise definition of "orderly." It always appears to boil down to something like, "I exist, therefore god must have created the universe in such a way that I DO exist."

The idea that the grand creator of the universe cares what happens to us is narcissism on the largest scale.

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May 7, 2012 09:14:39   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
The idea that there is a grand creator is narcissistic

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May 7, 2012 11:46:11   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
Here ya go, Sarg. Have you seen this one on intelligent design?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdocQHsPCNM

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May 7, 2012 14:02:27   #
davejann Loc: Portland Oregon
 
as a retired Orthopaedic surgeon, I made a decent living correcting the problems in "Intelligent Design".

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May 7, 2012 14:34:32   #
johnr9999 Loc: Carlton, OR
 
ngc1514 wrote:
johnr9999 wrote:
For those pseudo-scientists (note the spelling), name callers and those that are of the opinion that Google is the be all and end all of science, please read the attached.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120506160119.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Nice catch, John. It's always good to find an explanation for ONE of the climate changes in the past. It's also interesting that the author(s) of the piece also seem to accept the human influence on global warming when they write:
Quote:
Albeit those findings cannot be directly transferred to future projections because the current climate is additionally affected by anthropogenic forcing, they provide clear evidence for still poorly understood aspects of the climate system, emphasizes Achim Brauer. In particular, further investigations are required with a focus on the climatic consequences of changes in different wavelengths of the solar spectrum.

As someone who studied chemistry and virology, I'm sure you understand the meaning of "anthropogenic forcing."

Or do you want to play Chinese Buffet and pick and choose which part of the article you like while rejecting other parts that you don't?

Now, there is one big series of dots you have not yet connected: how does this article apply to what's happening to the earth's climate 2300 years later? The article seemed pretty clear they do not when, in the part quoted above, the author(s) state:
Quote:
Albeit those findings cannot be directly transferred to future projections...


From the article:
Quote:
The exceptional seasonally laminated sediments from the studied maar lake allow a precise dating even of short-term climate changes. The results show for a 200 year long period strongly increased springtime winds during a period of cool and wet climate in Europe. In combination with model studies they suggest a mechanism that can explain the relation between a weak sun and climate change. "The change and strengthening of the tropospheric wind systems likely is related to stratospheric processes which in turn are affected by the ultraviolet radiation" explains Achim Brauer (GFZ), the initiator of the study. "This complex chain of processes thus acts as a positive feedback mechanism that could explain why assumingly too small variations in solar activity have caused regional climate changes."
The exceptional seasonally laminated sediments fro... (show quote)

Are any similar laminated sediments seen today? Has a period of " strongly increased springtime winds" been noted and documented? If so, where?

Finally there is this:
Quote:
Around 2800 years ago, one of these Grand Solar Minima, the Homeric Minimum, caused a distinct climatic change in less than a decade in Western Europe.

The article says nothing about world-wide climate change, only climate change in Western Europe. How does that relate to the world-wide changes going on now?

A couple other things. You wrote:
Quote:
I consider myself a Creationist and take offense to it being used in a perjorative manor.

And
Quote:
And, would it be too much trouble to use a spell checker on your postings?

Looks like your spell checking abilities are as "execrable" as those you excoriate. It should be "pejorative manner."

I'd be delighted to chat about the science (or lack of it) behind creationism should you ever like to take up that challenge. A new thread would be best. If not, I can fully understand why not.
quote=johnr9999 For those pseudo-scientists (note... (show quote)

The purpose of my posting was to enforce the previously stated concept that earth-external forces can have an affect on weather.
As stated in the article, "This complex chain of processes thus acts as a positive feedback mechanism that could explain why assumingly too small variations in solar activity have caused regional climate changes."
Good catch on the pejorative. I mistakenly assumed that that word would be beyond the posters with the aforementioned execrable spelling.
As for the science behind Creationism, a very famous astronomer made the statement that (and I paraphrase) "scientists have climbed mountains of knowledge only to discover more mountains on the other side only to come to the peak of the last mountain to see theologians there and asking 'What took you so long?".
The Bible says we have all been given a measure of faith. Each one of us decides what we want to use it on.
I remember having a discussion at work about science and Christianity and a fellow worker came to those of discussing it and mentioned how impressed he was how we discuss the without all the anger.

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May 7, 2012 14:48:39   #
Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine
 
johnr9999 wrote:
The Bible says we have all been given a measure of faith. . .


Perhaps, but you have to believe the Bible for that to matter.

Remove the Bible, and it can be taken as a statement of the patently obvious. Two other ways of phrasing the same idea are "Some people are more gullible than others" and "Some people are wiser than others". Neither version has anything whatsoever to say either in support of the Bible, or against it.

Cheers,

R.

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May 7, 2012 15:36:17   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
johnr9999 wrote:

The purpose of my posting was to enforce the previously stated concept that earth-external forces can have an affect on weather.
..snip..
As for the science behind Creationism, a very famous astronomer made the statement that (and I paraphrase) "scientists have climbed mountains of knowledge only to discover more mountains on the other side only to come to the peak of the last mountain to see theologians there and asking 'What took you so long?".
The Bible says we have all been given a measure of faith. Each one of us decides what we want to use it on.
I remember having a discussion at work about science and Christianity and a fellow worker came to those of discussing it and mentioned how impressed he was how we discuss the without all the anger.
br The purpose of my posting was to enforce the p... (show quote)

Who has ever claimed external forces can not have an effect on the planet's climate? Asteroids have slammed into the planet and produced some major climatic changes.

The question remains: what does this have to do with the current global climate changes?

Since we have yet to come to that "last mountain," it's far too early for the theologians to start gloating. And what answer are they going to give other than "Magic man done it"? What kind of an answer is that? In your studies of chemistry and virology, would it have been accepted on any of the examinations?

See the Robin Ince video mentioned above.

Just out of idle curiosity... are you a young earth or old earth creationist?

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May 7, 2012 21:40:36   #
johnr9999 Loc: Carlton, OR
 
ngc1514 wrote:
johnr9999 wrote:

The purpose of my posting was to enforce the previously stated concept that earth-external forces can have an affect on weather.
..snip..
As for the science behind Creationism, a very famous astronomer made the statement that (and I paraphrase) "scientists have climbed mountains of knowledge only to discover more mountains on the other side only to come to the peak of the last mountain to see theologians there and asking 'What took you so long?".
The Bible says we have all been given a measure of faith. Each one of us decides what we want to use it on.
I remember having a discussion at work about science and Christianity and a fellow worker came to those of discussing it and mentioned how impressed he was how we discuss the without all the anger.
br The purpose of my posting was to enforce the p... (show quote)

Who has ever claimed external forces can not have an effect on the planet's climate? Asteroids have slammed into the planet and produced some major climatic changes.

The question remains: what does this have to do with the current global climate changes?

Since we have yet to come to that "last mountain," it's far too early for the theologians to start gloating. And what answer are they going to give other than "Magic man done it"? What kind of an answer is that? In your studies of chemistry and virology, would it have been accepted on any of the examinations?

See the Robin Ince video mentioned above.

Just out of idle curiosity... are you a young earth or old earth creationist?
quote=johnr9999 br The purpose of my posting was... (show quote)

I did not state that it had anything to do with the current climate "change". Gym stated, "About a decade ago, when the earth was in a warming period, other planets in our solar system were, coincidentally, also warming. Because they don't produce any CO2, were they warming because of OUR increased CO2? OR should we look to something that all the planets have in common?
Just wonderin'........". I received that article that day and thought it was relevant to his statement. Your straw man statements thereafter - also Roger Hicks' - are far from the point I was making. I read an article (not Google) stating that one theory of the evolution of complex hydrocarbons was the flourishing of phytoplankton millions of years ago, thus leading to a global warming that facilitated evolution. My point here - since I can't infer it. It must be made simplistically clear - is that global warming has had many cause in our planets lifetime. I do believe that the amount of pollution being put out by humans is potentially disastrous. When watching the Chinese F1 race a couple of weeks ago, you could not see to the end of the straight-away due to the smog. For people like Al Gore - the inventor of the Internet, if I recall correctly - to propose that he knows the cause of global warming is ludicrous. He wasn't even sure of the cause of his becoming vice president.
As for new earther or old earther, that is another straw man. It has nothing to do with God creating the universe. However, if you read Genesis, it says that sin brought death into the world. Prior to that death did not exist. The Bible gives no indication about how long Adam and Eve lived. It could have been any number of years. Also, what happened after sin entered the world is an excellent explanation for entropy. You might want to "Google" that word. Heaven forfend you would look it up in a book. You can PM if you want and I will explain what they are.

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May 7, 2012 23:08:07   #
singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines
 
To JohnR999,
I read your reponce to Roger and applaud your position. I think Roger misunderstood your belief as one of the new "CREATIONISTS" that reject the theory of evolution. You obviously promote the concept of evolution or you would not have gone into virology.
This so called heat spell you speak of that occurred more than a decade ago from the increased output of our sun is recorded and noted. But, isn't this the cause of the temperature increases on other planets in our solar system? You admit that man's increased polution of our atmosphere has altered the amount of heat that can escape into space, and that heat is heald captive within our atmosphere. You even go on to say you saw the massive amounts of air polution at the formula one races in China.
However, the article you presented talks about local weather changes and speaks nothing about global average temperture increases that have been recorded by NASA and other scientific organizations. This, to me anyway, is the main topic here and not some localized issue for Germany or just the European continent. Once there are changes to the Jet Streams of the world, then ocean current and fishing grounds will be altered or destoyed and crop devestation from draught or flooding is the main issue. Right now there are famines from draught in Africa, floods in Southeast Asia and India and with increased polution from the millions of extra gasoline vehicles in China and India, which do not comply to any of the new emission standards either here or in Europe, this polution can only become worse.
These so called scientific journals and reports and articles that are published or on the net that refute global warming are all trying to steer our attentions away from a frightening and inevitable demise of not only our way of life but possibly all life as we know it on this planet. Yes, the planet has been her before us and will probably be here after us, but LIFE is what counts here and not the rock it resides on.

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May 7, 2012 23:31:40   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
If you are looking for something all the planets have in common, then the argument should be that all the planets, and asteroids and moons, should also be warming. Since you are so hot on science, you should understand the concept of cause. If the planets are warming (which they are not), the cause, and not just the effect, should be evident.

What is the cause?

As mentioned before, why is it always the deniers who bring Gore into the discussion?

The concept of relating original sin (something the existence of can not be empirically determined) with entropy is not new. It's just another attempt to lend some credibility to a 2000 year old myth and just makes you look silly.

Why silly? How did the stars shine for however long it took before Eve done et the apple on the tree if there was no entropy? How did plants grow and fires burn? There are THREE laws of thermodynamics of which entropy is but one. You might want to look up the other two. Explain the thermodynamics of a fire without referring to entropy.

Tell me what happens to the fuel if there is no entropy.
Go on... I double dog dare ya!

And I thought you knew this stuff. Or so you would have people believe.

Your attempts at condescension while babbling about Adam and Eve and ancient Near Eastern myths is amusing.

But please, do continue.

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May 7, 2012 23:33:38   #
johnr9999 Loc: Carlton, OR
 
singleviking wrote:
To JohnR999,
I read your reponce to Roger and applaud your position. I think Roger misunderstood your belief as one of the new "CREATIONISTS" that reject the theory of evolution. You obviously promote the concept of evolution or you would not have gone into virology.
This so called heat spell you speak of that occurred more than a decade ago from the increased output of our sun is recorded and noted. But, isn't this the cause of the temperature increases on other planets in our solar system? You admit that man's increased polution of our atmosphere has altered the amount of heat that can escape into space, and that heat is heald captive within our atmosphere. You even go on to say you saw the massive amounts of air polution at the formula one races in China.
However, the article you presented talks about local weather changes and speaks nothing about global average temperture increases that have been recorded by NASA and other scientific organizations. This, to me anyway, is the main topic here and not some localized issue for Germany or just the European continent. Once there are changes to the Jet Streams of the world, then ocean current and fishing grounds will be altered or destoyed and crop devestation from draught or flooding is the main issue. Right now there are famines from draught in Africa, floods in Southeast Asia and India and with increased polution from the millions of extra gasoline vehicles in China and India, which do not comply to any of the new emission standards either here or in Europe, this polution can only become worse.
These so called scientific journals and reports and articles that are published or on the net that refute global warming are all trying to steer our attentions away from a frightening and inevitable demise of not only our way of life but possibly all life as we know it on this planet. Yes, the planet has been her before us and will probably be here after us, but LIFE is what counts here and not the rock it resides on.
To JohnR999, br I read your reponce to Roger an... (show quote)

No, to me evolution is contrary to the facts of science. Entropy states that any ordered system will degrade, aka heat death. Also, there are no examples of intermediate species to substantiate the transition from one species to another. As for virology, viruses show incredible adaptation but not one scintilla of species changing, not even family changing even given replication millions of times within one cell. RNA viruses stay RNA viruses affecting the same level of hosts. DNA viruses, retroviruses, etc, etc, etc. the same.
Another theory of global warming, not from google that the pseudo scientists here seem to think represents real science. This is from the current issue of New Scientist.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21783-sauropod-farts-warmed-the-planet.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

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May 7, 2012 23:57:35   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
John writes: Entropy states that any ordered system will degrade, aka heat death.

You forgot the important word, John. The word is "closed." Entropy states that any closed, ordered system will degrade." The earth is not a closed system and so order can be assembled from disorder. Plants are a perfect example.

There is only one closed system of which we are aware and that's the whole universe which, as you so astutely note, will eventually reach a temperature just a few trillionths of a degree above absolute zero and experience heat death.

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May 8, 2012 00:09:06   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
Seems like this paper discusses speciation events in viruses.
Quote:
The main objective of the project RNAVIRSPE was to gain a deeper understanding of the evolutionary processes, as well as the role of relevant genetic and biological factors, leading to 'speciation' (i.e. appearance of new species) in animal and plant RNA viruses, through comparative gene sequence analysis. Specifically, the aspects to be addressed in this project are:
1) Analyse different biological factors affecting virus speciation (host range, geographical distribution, etc)'
2) Study of the role of "modular evolution" in the evolution of different families of animal and plant RNA viruses;
3) Estimate the general frequency of lateral gene transfer in these viral families;
4) Determine the role of other genetic factors, such as mutation rates, levels of gene expression and the presence of gene overlapping, in virus speciation.

During the first 12 months of the project, the role of various biological and genetic factors involved in speciation processes of two major groups of plant RNA viruses -luteoviruses and tobamoviruses- has been analyzed. To do so, state-of-the-art bioinformatic techniques have been applied in order to perform comparative genome sequence analysis. This allowed achieving objectives 1, 2 and 3 for plant RNA viruses. The results indicate that viral speciation events tended to occur within the same plant host species and country of origin, as expected if speciation is largely sympatric, rather than allopatric, in nature. Importantly, the role of host range seems to be associated with virus adaptation rather than with co-divergence processes between the virus and host species. In addition, these analyses have shown that modular evolution is involved in speciation of the luteoviruses, but not of the tobamoviruses, for which recombination rate is extremely low.

Understanding these evolutionary processes and the factors involved in virus speciation will contribute to know how viruses adapt to new environmental conditions and which forces may shape this process. Once finished, the project will allow answering key questions in virus evolution such as what genomic changes allows RNA viruses to infect new hosts or survive to different climate conditions? How fast can an RNA virus genome evolve? Can RNA viruses exchange functional modules or genes, or is their evolution mainly the result of the accumulation of point mutations? The answers to these questions will help to understand the origin and causes of the emergence of novel viral diseases. Hence, the conclusions obtained are of high general interest, as the results obtained can be used to the development of more efficient control strategies for infectious diseases, and implement health politics.
The main objective of the project RNAVIRSPE was to... (show quote)

http://cordis.europa.eu/search/index.cfm?fuseaction=result.document&RS_LANG=EN&RS_RCN=12793023&q=

Ummm... maybe you're not looking closely enough for speciation events. It sure seems other people are finding them.

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May 8, 2012 00:24:00   #
johnr9999 Loc: Carlton, OR
 
read it carefully. it states changes in families not species.
I think this has gone on long enough. I have been accused of things I didn't say and my religious beliefs have been held to mockery. Something no one would dare to do with Judaism or Islam (for fear of death) but have no compunctions about denigrating Christianity. If it's called bigotry for other religions (hate that word, but the screechers wouldn't understand relationship) why not with Christianity? No more to be said.

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