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Preparing for the Nuremberg War Crimes trials - German Occupation 1945
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Jan 2, 2016 12:14:04   #
ken hubert Loc: Missouri
 
phlash46 wrote:
The first one after the OP one page one. Unnecessary and nasty.


What's your problem? PMS?

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Jan 2, 2016 12:15:17   #
donolea Loc: Nashville, TN
 
Richard, thanks for this great bit of history. I'm always intrigued by military history, especially as it focuses on Berlin. I served in the the Berlin Brigade (4/502d) from 1985-86 as a member of a QRT (quick reaction team) that patrolled the wall. My particular platoon also had the distinction of spending a month inside Spandau Prison guarding Rudolf Hess.

For those unfamiliar with Spandau Prison, it was built as a 19th Century penitentiary. The buildings were a pseudo-medieval, red-brick fortress. It was built in 1876 to hold 500 prisoners as a military detention center. after World War II it held the seven Nazi leaders sentenced from Nuremberg. However, since 1966, its only prisoner was Rudolph Hess (Uncle Rudy as we liked to call him). He was held until his death on 17 August 1987. Each of the four powers then in Berlin: British, American, French, and Soviets rotated the service on guard duty and support at the prison for a month at a time — which is how I ended up there. Just after his death the British Forces decided to completely destroy the prison to prevent it from becoming a shrine.

I was stationed in Tower 1, just to the right of the main entrance. The benefit to that was that it was only 25-30 yards from the main street in front of the prison. Our shifts were two hours on, six hours off. The guard was not the most popular of duties as once you were mounted in your little tower there was no reprieve for those two hours, you had to STAY there — there was no other way, you were locked in.

Changing of the guard with the Soviets at Spandua Prison...
Changing of the guard with the Soviets at Spandua ...
(Download)

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Jan 2, 2016 12:17:19   #
ken hubert Loc: Missouri
 
Keldon wrote:
What do you mean, "we lost?" The Allies won.

The original poster has been periodically posting these vignettes of WWII history for a few years now. Most Hogs enjoy them and look forward to reading them.
Please don't be so rude next time one comes out. If you don't want to read them then don't spoil it for the rest of us who greatly value Richards knowledge and experiences.


Rude? For asking a question? Lecture someone else after taking your Midol. Sounds like your PMS has arrived.

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Jan 2, 2016 12:20:34   #
donolea Loc: Nashville, TN
 
richosob wrote:
RichardQ, thank you so much for these posts concerning World War 2. If some people aren't interested in this type of history then they can just pass it by. I, for one, can't wait for your posts because I have a deep interest in what happened during the war and just after. There are people here that look forward to your posts. I really think that the school system in this country should teach our children about events leading up to the war, and why sometimes it is necessary for countries to band together for the sake of freedom and to eliminate a government that wants to spread their their boundaries and enslave their people. Looking forward to your next post.

Rich
RichardQ, thank you so much for these posts concer... (show quote)


:thumbup: :thumbup:

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Jan 2, 2016 12:23:55   #
jimmya Loc: Phoenix
 
RichardQ wrote:
When Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin met at Yalta in the Soviet Crimea in February, 1945, no decision had yet been reached on what to do with the top Nazis when Germany surrendered.

Churchill and Roosevelt leaned toward summary executions. Stalin, however, proposed putting the Nazis on public trial first, then executing them (historically a favored approach of the Soviets). U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, among Roosevelt's advisors, joined Stalin and persuaded Roosevelt to agree to an international trial based on American procedures. Details were to be worked out later.

But a few weeks later, on April 12, Roosevelt died at age 63 and was replaced by V.P. Harry Truman, who had not attended any of the Big Three conferences. Meanwhile, the Nazi government collapsed. On April 30, 1945, eighteen days days after Roosevelt's death, Hitler (age 56) committed suicide in his Berlin bunker.

The next day, Joseph Goebbels (the highest ranking Nazi left in the bunker) watched a doctor murder his six children by injecting them with poison. Then he commanded an SS orderly to shoot him and his wife in the back of their heads. Another top Nazi, SS commander Heinrich Himmler, chose a poison capsule when captured by the British. A macabre parade of suicides crossed the Third Reich.

On May 8, 1945, the remaining Nazi military leaders signed the surrender documents, since no civilians had the authority. By then, the Nazi offices in Berlin were empty. Officials -- including Hitler's No. 2 man, Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering -- had shed their uniforms, fleeing to whatever corner of Germany they hoped was a haven. Before the month was out, most of them surrendered peacefully to the American and British forces.

Then the whole Nazi hierarchy -- ministers, field marshals, state secretaries, etc. -- were corralled, transported to Luxembourg, and housed in the Palace Hotel in Mondorf. No prison atmosphere yet, but a lot of griping and quarreling.

Dr. Albert Speer, the Minister of Armaments and Production, was surprised to be separated from the others, put into a limousine and taken to a luxury hotel in Versailles, which was Eisenhower's headquarters at the time. There Speer, respected for his competence, spent weeks participating together with leading German technicians, scientists, agriculturalists, and railroad specialists, helping technical officers of the U.S. and British armies to grasp the conditions in Germany.

Eventually, some of the top Nazis (including Speer, but not Goering) were transferred to Kransberg Castle near Frankfurt. A trained architect, Speer had renovated it to Goering's taste years earlier. Speer later wrote, "Compared with our fellow countrymen, who were going hungry in their freedom, we were inappropriately well off, for we received the same rations as American troops."

By then, some of the Nazi leaders were beginning to hope that when the questioning was completed, they would be released. After all, they had only obeyed Hitler's orders, right?

But in London, on August 8, 1945, a formal Agreement was signed between the Four Allied Powers (France was now included). Articles One through Seven established the Charter for the International Military Tribunal for the trials of war criminals.

The London Conference indicted 24 men and six organizations. Speer was one of them. So was Goering. They were moved into the harsh prison environment at Oberursal for interrogation by U.S. Counter Intelligence. In September, 1945, they were transferred to grim individual cells in the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg (some Americans preferred "Nurnberg"). Let the trials begin.
When Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin met at Yalta ... (show quote)


Goering actually believed the allies would make him some high ranking member of the new German government. The fool.

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Jan 2, 2016 12:29:34   #
JFleming Loc: Belchertown, Ma
 
Interesting piece of history, thanks.

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Jan 2, 2016 12:51:44   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
Also read my old professor's A world at war: a history of world war 2 by gerhard weinberg. 1208 pages Cambridge Univ Press. It is probably the finest history of the war and the events leading up to it available.


"...a coherent--in fact, hypnotic--narrative offered up in a single, handsome volume... surely the finest one-volume history we have of the most important event of the century." American Heritage --

See reviews. http://www.amazon.com/World-Arms-Global-History-War/dp/0521618266

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Jan 2, 2016 13:08:48   #
JoAnneK01 Loc: Lahaina, Hawaii
 
I so enjoy your history moments of a time that so many want to forget and rewrite the truth to meet their side of the story. The U.S. occupation of the war torn world helped to rebuild all of the countries and provide freedoms which many had never had prior to. Mahalo and I do hope that your will continue with your vignettes.

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Jan 2, 2016 13:27:39   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
The Marshall Plan which provided funds to rebuild western europe were offered to the USSR which refused to accept the funds. Regardless, the Plan had strings attached and much of the money given was tied to purchases of US goods and services. Thus, the rebuilding of Western Europe assured the US transition from a wartime economy to a consumer economy.

One of the goals of the Plan was to assure a capitalistic system in Europe and the successful development of European industry. The Plan was and is the most successful piece of foreign aid ever.

Its success has led to a war free world in Europe.



JoAnneK01 wrote:
I so enjoy your history moments of a time that so many want to forget and rewrite the truth to meet their side of the story. The U.S. occupation of the war torn world helped to rebuild all of the countries and provide freedoms which many had never had prior to. Mahalo and I do hope that your will continue with your vignettes.

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Jan 2, 2016 13:51:51   #
rightofattila
 
The Nuremberg trials were a joke. Why weren't Stalin and his fellow Soviet thugs in the defendant docket for the unprovoked invasion of Finland? Also, the Soviets invaded Poland from the East at the same time the Germans invaded from the West. The Soviets executed 10,000 Polish officers in the Katyn woods. Cold blooded murder. The Soviets had no business judging anyone!

Admirals Donitz and Raeder were put on trial for unrestricted submarine warfare. If you know anything about the American submarine forces during the war, then you know they sunk anything afloat around Japan including fishing ships and a Russian hospital ship.

And lastly, how do you write laws AFTER the fact and hold people accountable? It's like saying eating apples is now a crime . . . and oh by the way we are going to put you on trial for all the apples you have eaten up to this point.

The "Hunting Hitler" show is interesting but I doubt they find any proof he survived the bunker. If Hitler escaped, then why didn't Goerbels and Borman escape also?

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Jan 2, 2016 13:53:25   #
daplight Loc: Kansas
 
Thank you for your background(s) Richard. I've just finished reading The War Between The Generals by David Irving, where I was left with the feeling that General Eisenhower was regarded as somewhat 'indecisive.' Interested to hear what you think. Also, I would be interested to know of any other books you would recommend reading.

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Jan 2, 2016 14:33:30   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
to the victors goes the spoils

the soviets lost some 50,000,000 in the war

what the nazis did was beyond the pale

as for the rest of the diatribe

YAWN



rightofattila wrote:
The Nuremberg trials were a joke. Why weren't Stalin and his fellow Soviet thugs in the defendant docket for the unprovoked invasion of Finland? Also, the Soviets invaded Poland from the East at the same time the Germans invaded from the West. The Soviets executed 10,000 Polish officers in the Katyn woods. Cold blooded murder. The Soviets had no business judging anyone!

Admirals Donitz and Raeder were put on trial for unrestricted submarine warfare. If you know anything about the American submarine forces during the war, then you know they sunk anything afloat around Japan including fishing ships and a Russian hospital ship.

And lastly, how do you write laws AFTER the fact and hold people accountable? It's like saying eating apples is now a crime . . . and oh by the way we are going to put you on trial for all the apples you have eaten up to this point.

The "Hunting Hitler" show is interesting but I doubt they find any proof he survived the bunker. If Hitler escaped, then why didn't Goerbels and Borman escape also?
The Nuremberg trials were a joke. Why weren't Sta... (show quote)

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Jan 2, 2016 14:39:32   #
matt thomas
 
You are correct in arguing that the Nuremberg trials were sanctioned by a finding of "crimes against humanity' after the actual commission of the deeds themselves. Yes...but so what? Are you suggesting that these Nazi monsters were to be left free and unmolested and - absent a specific law, setting down a precedent that they were free to make war on any nation - imprison and torture thousands of innocent people and by way of official state policy, exterminate an entire race of men, women and children, including even infants? And then you go on to excuse all of this because of what the Soviets may have gotten away with. In the event you want to make a separate issue over the Katyn forest massacre of Polish officers I would have no argument. Nor would I with all the other atrocities committed by the butcher Stalin and his underlings, as well as others going back to Lenin. Nevertheless, nothing can somehow justify the crimes of Hitler and his Nazis. But then perhaps you are only trolling in an effort to get attention. If so, you have been successful.

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Jan 2, 2016 14:39:45   #
bimmer124 Loc: Woodstock, New York
 
phlash46 wrote:
The first one after the OP one page one. Unnecessary and nasty.


By whom?

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Jan 2, 2016 15:06:43   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
Read:

1. Hannah Arendt Origins of totalitarianism
2. Ernst Nolte Three Faces of Fascism
3. Bullock: Hitler
4. Beevor: Stalingrad
5. Weinberg: A World at Arms

Weinberg's reading list
The Nuremberg SS-Einsatzgruppen Trial, 1945–1958
Atrocity, Law, and History
Hilary Earl (2009)
“A most interesting and carefully done study of the only Nuremberg trial in which the Holocaust was central.”

Tapping Hitler’s Generals
Transcripts of Secret Conversations, 1942–1945
Sönke Neitzel, ed. (2007)
“You get a real sense of what Germany’s World War II generals actually knew and thought.”

Missiles for the Fatherland
Peenemünde, National Socialism, and the V-2 Missile
Michael B. Petersen (2009)
“A new and entirely original examination of an often misunderstood aspect of Nazi Germany.”

Guderian
Panzer Pioneer or Myth Maker?
Russell A. Hart (2006)
“Finally, a reliable work on the author of highly unreliable memoirs.”

Erich Raeder
Admiral of the Third Reich
Keith Bird (2006)
“America’s key expert on Germany’s World War II navy offers a balanced account of its long-term leader.”

Command of Honor
General Lucian Truscott’s Path to Victory in World War II
H. Paul Jeffers (2008)
“It is about time for a good book about one of this country’s outstanding World War II leaders.”

When you get done with those drop a line




daplight wrote:
Thank you for your background(s) Richard. I've just finished reading The War Between The Generals by David Irving, where I was left with the feeling that General Eisenhower was regarded as somewhat 'indecisive.' Interested to hear what you think. Also, I would be interested to know of any other books you would recommend reading.

Reply
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