mwoods222 Loc: Newburg N.Y,

I agree. If I was smart I would have finished highschool and been ripe for that war but I was a lousy student get lift back so much I quit school and joined the army 1960 was discharged in 63 all over for me I guess I wasn't So dumb after all

kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy

America has no patent on capitalism. The Chinese rise is a natural phenomenon in the life cycle of empires, as wealth and influence pass to a new part of the world when a sclerotic empire prices itself out of manufacturing and turns to financial services. It passed from the Portuguese to the Spanish to the Dutch to the English to the Americans, about once a century (if I've got the order right).

There is no way back for America, the sun is setting. The best that can be achieved is a cooperative multi-polar sharing of power, but the Chinese don't seem to be interested in that. They will take what they have the power to take, as nations always do.

A few years ago, covering the riots in Xingiang, our group of journalists was approached by a couple of British intelligence agents. One told me that they expect to have to go "toe to toe" with the Chinese, and so far I would say he is right. Resource wars are already upon us, and it is not going to get better unless we all decide to cooperate and find a way to share what exists. China is 1.4 billion and India is not far behind, and will overtake them soon. Neither sees why they should not strive for a Western standard of living for their people, especially now that they have the power and means to pursue it, and people willing to work 14 hour days for a fraction of what a Westerner makes.

As long as an empire can maintain control of the means of production they can prevail, but technology is changing that paradigm completely, as is the asymmetric warfare that technology makes possible. We are in for "interesting times", as the old Chinese curse goes.

machia Loc: NJ

I agree with you in part, but there is no excuse for our internal collapse, at least not at the rate in which Americans see. The British Empire for example collapsed due to a war that drained them economically. We are being drained by policies that have root in self preservation .
The West in general is in trouble, there's more to this picture .
By the way , you make valid points for consideration . Excellent observations .
Are you familiar with the term Thucydides Trap ?

machia Loc: NJ

Typo........No root in self preservation .

kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy

I agree. The American tragedy is that factions are fighting each other, arguing over who made holes in the boat rather than bailing together and trying to fix the ship. I have lived outside the U.S. now for 40 years and the view from the outside is different.

My railing against the distorted picture of U.S. history derived from the dysfunction it causes when the going gets tough. People seem to think the U.S. particularly blessed and exceptional, and they don't know what to do when this proves not to be so.

The American system is a great idea, and well conceived, but America's preeminence derived not so much from the system per se as its application in the right place at the right time. Given a vast untouched land, occupied only by some marginally troublesome natives easily dispatched, coupled with a technological boom, made things a lot easier than in other civilized regions. And slavery played its part, although that was not so different than in other places. Still that was cheap labor that could be used to exploit the available resources and generate great wealth. If people saw that Americans are just another people who used to be in a more privileged position than they are now, perhaps they could approach the situation more pragmatically.

The Chinese have a saying that when times get tough the money returns to whom it belongs. Too many rich and powerful people in the U.S. are thinking only for themselves and not for the nation, sad to say.

No, I'm not familiar with the term, but I will look it up. As you are clearly a considered person searching for understanding let me recommend Philip Bobbitt's book: The Shield of Achilles, War, Peace and the Course of History, which will put much of this in excellent context. Cheers.

kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy

Ah I see the Thucydides Trap. The problem is that with a faltering economy the legitimacy of the CCP must rely on an increased focus on nationalism to control an increasing restive population. The closing of the American mind is nothing compared with what goes on in China, and in not allowing the development of a more mature civil society the authorities are painting themselves into a deep corner. "Serious social incidents" in China doubled between 2009 and 2011--from 89,000 to 190,000, but media control is so tight that almost no one know this. I can only imagine where they are now.

As things deteriorate they will have to create outside foes for the people to focus their frustrations upon.

There's much more to be said, but I am about to take off for Beijing ;)

If you can, read the Atlantic article: "China's Dangerous Game".

Violameister Loc: michigan

One of several interesting Thucydides Trap articles: http://americanreviewmag.com/stories/Thucydides-Trap

Violameister Loc: michigan

Excellent article, available online: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/11/chinas-dangerous-game/380789/

kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy

Thx! This too is a well-reasoned and balanced analysis.

alamomike47 Loc: San Antonio, Texas

Thank you from a Vietnam vet that visited the wall twice to rub my hand on my classmate, friend, and next door neighbors name that did not make it back.

Eagle Eye Loc: Huntington, NY

Thanks for this. Brings it all back home again. Deep and personal.

twillsol Loc: St. Louis, MO

[quote=jerryc41]A sober reminder of the cost of war.
-------------------------------------------


A little history most people will never know. Interesting Veterans Statistics off the Vietnam Memorial Wall. Something to think about -

Most of the surviving Parents are now Deceased.

There are 58,267 names now listed on that polished black wall, including those added in 2010.

The names are arranged in the order in which they were taken from us by date and within each date the names are alphabetized. It is hard to believe it is 40 years since the last fatality in 1975.

Beginning at the apex on panel 1E and going out to the end of the East wall, appearing to recede into the earth (numbered 70E - May 25, 1968), then resuming at the end of the West wall, as the
wall emerges from the earth (numbered 70W - continuing May 25, 1968) and ending with a date in 1975. Thus the war's beginning and end meet. The war is complete, coming full circle, yet broken by the earth that bounds the angle's open side and contained within the earth itself.

The first known casualty was Richard B. Fitzgibbon, of North Weymouth , Mass. Listed by the U.S. Department of Defense as having been killed on June 8, 1956. His name is listed on the Wall with that of his son, Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Richard B. Fitzgibbon III, who was killed on Sept. 7, 1965.

There are three sets of fathers and sons on the Wall.

39,996 on the Wall were just 22 or younger.

8,283 were just 19 years old.

The largest age group, 33,103 were 18 years old.

12 soldiers on the Wall were 17 years old.

5 soldiers on the Wall were 16 years old.

One soldier, PFC Dan Bullock was 15 years old.

997 soldiers were killed on their first day in Vietnam .

1,448 soldiers were killed on their last scheduled day in Vietnam .

31 sets of brothers are on the Wall. Thirty one sets of parents lost two of their sons.

54 soldiers on the Wall attended Thomas Edison High School in Philadelphia . I wonder why so many from one school.

8 Women are on the Wall. Nursing the wounded.

244 soldiers were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam War; 153 of them
are on the Wall.

Beallsville , Ohio with a population of 475, lost 6 of her sons.

West Virginia had the highest casualty rate per capita in the nation. There are 711 West Virginians on the Wall.

The Marines of Morenci - They led some of the scrappiest high school football and basketball teams that the little Arizona copper town of Morenci (pop. 5,058) had ever known. They enjoyed roaring beer busts. In quieter moments, they rode horses along the Coronado Trail, stalked deer in the Apache National Forest . And in the patriotic camaraderie typical of Morenci's mining families, the nine graduates of Morenci High enlisted as a group in the Marine Corps. Their service began on Independence Day, 1966. Only 3 returned home.

The Buddies of Midvale - LeRoy Tafoya, Jimmy Martinez, Tom Gonzales were all boyhood friends and lived on three consecutive streets in Midvale, Utah on Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Avenues. They lived only a few yards apart. They played ball at the adjacent sandlot ball field. And they all went to Vietnam . In a span of 16 dark days in late 1967, all three would be killed. LeRoy was killed on Wednesday, Nov. 22, the fourth anniversary of John F. Kennedy’s assassination. Jimmy died less than 24 hours later on Thanksgiving Day. Tom was shot dead assaulting the enemy on Dec. 7, Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day.

The most casualty deaths for a single day was on January 31, 1968 ~ 245 deaths.

The most casualty deaths for a single month was May 1968 - 2,415 casualties were incurred.

For most Americans who read this they will only see the numbers that the Vietnam War created. To those of us who survived the war, and to the families of those who did not, we see the faces, we feel the pain that these numbers created. We are, until we too pass away, haunted with these numbers, because they were our friends, fathers, husbands, wives, sons and daughters. There are no noble wars, just noble warriors.[/quote

Thanks Jerry, I served during the Viet Nam Conflict and lost a few friends. I have been to the Wall and it is Awesome and very sad to experience.