Doktor Loc: New Jersey

Does anyone here remember using the Zone System for rich toned B&W prints? I once had a professional darkroom (where one actually got one's hands wet), and turned out beautiful prints. But alas, digital killed the film purist. Other than gallery grade prints, any photo can be fabricated. I'd like to know if the Zone System concept can be applied in this digital omelet.

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

Doktor, Yup, I still use The Zone System, especially with my 4x5 work. It's a bit more difficult with roll film, but still can be used prior to the photo to assess the best exposure to keep all the photos on the roll within limits.

I've applied, within limits, the system with my digital work. However, I've found that it has to be somewhat reversed from that used in film. Post processing accommodates the remaining work after the initial exposure is done. Also, it's best to use RAW when exposing to use that process.
--Bob

camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.

Like you I spent many years in the optical darkroom working with b&w photography. The Zone System was my primary tool.
The Zone System concept can be applied to b&w images but it is done in the "digital darkroom."
If you use Photoshop LEVELS offers independent controls for the bright areas, dark areas and middle tonalities. More control is available with BRIGHNESS-CONTRAST and with SELECTIVE COLOR.
Although my optical darkroom is long gone and I have not used b&w film in years I still work b&W images using software and my favorite is Topaz B&W Effects 2 for conversion of color images to b&w. To me it is like a hit and miss business, sometimes I come up with an image I love and many times I am disappointed not getting the tonalities I was used to see in the digital darkroom using fiber base paper.
I am sure those new to b&w photography using digital are finding "spectacular" photographs as they go through the different modalities used today for conversion. I could be biased but to me nothing so far replaces the optical darkroom when working with a good negative.
I admit that today it is much easier to work with b&w than it was in the past but try and see if you can get with digital what Ansel Adams did in his darkroom when it came to tonalities.
I am sure this is going to change or perhaps I need to change but I still see a difference when I compare an image done in the optical darkroom with modern images.

Leitz Loc: Solms

Digital has not affected the film purist at all. I recently purchased 20 rolls of 120 Adox CMS 20 II - the sheriff has assured me I'm within the law.

GeoffHD Loc: Essex UK

Yes of course it is still relevant today as in the old wet room, Just that today it is digital, Anything that could be achieved those days can be done today and a whole lot more.
If Ansel Adams had todays technology available to him he would have spent most of his life in the field rather in the darkroom trying to get every last ounce of detail from his neg's.
As beautiful as his prints were and still are, remember he very seldom used 35mm most were shot on plate cameras with a low ISO, lower than any digital camera offers today.
I think another name for a Purist is an old "Stick in the Mud" Times change, technology with it, come on move along or you will get left in the mire.

ronwande Loc: Hendersonville NC

Long ago I had a book on the zone system. Ansel Adams would measure the brightest and the darkest areas of the scene and based on the number of stops that he identified as the range of tones, he would adjust the exposure and the development time of the negative. A High contrast scene would get less development time and a low contrast scene, more.
Adams always wanted one pure white and one pure black in his image somewhere. Those places could be tiny or fairly large. Everything else would fall into place between the extremes.

Digital cameras can record a fixed and somewhat limited range of brightness. The analog of Adams' development time change is the use of curves or levels controls to increase or decrease the contrast.

A scene with a very large tonal range that exceeds what the camera can record, requires "High Dynamic Range" processing, in which you take a series of photos at different exposures. You keep a constant F/Stop and vary the shutter speed. Usually three or more exposures are required to cover the range. The lowest exposure should not produce any "spike" at the right end of the histogram. The highest exposure should not produce a peak at the left end of the histogram. The multiple images are put together using HDR software such as Photomatix. After arriving at a single image you can adjust the overall brightness with the levels or curves controls.

Adams also did considerable Dodge and Burn when he made a print. Dodging holds back the shadows a bit so they are not so dark. Burning darkens the highlights so they are not "blown out".

I trust this will help. I'm sure there will be other responses as well.

Mac Loc: Pittsburgh, Philadelphia now Hernando Co. Fl.

I've hated Ansel Adams ever since I had to learn the zone system.

Drala2k Loc: Vermont

I did use the system back in the days. Most photographers and enthusiasts today will not understand what is meant by pulling zones from a print as Adams did. The best way to really understand this is to be able to view actual prints by Adams, museum visit here probably as the art books do not do it. Not only did Adams pull a rich dark to white tonality out of his prints but he has achieved an incredible depth to the image, almost 3D. They are quite wonderful.

Shellback Loc: North of Cheyenne Bottoms Wetlands - Kansas

I used the Zone System back in the day - this link covers it fairly well...

If you're interested in learning it, a book called Zone VI Workshop by Fred Picker was my "go to" book until I had it down pat...

But like any skill, if you don't use, you lose it.
I haven't shot BW for years and luckily still have my book ;)

Nalu Loc: Southern Arizona

I am also an old fan of the zone system when I was using film but had not really tried it with Digital until I recently bought a new Canon D6 to upgrade from my old D-5. I was reading some forums about this and decided to drag out my old Pentax spot meter and meter the highlights of the subject placing them on zone 7. The images seem a little washed out when first viewed, but with some adjustments with curves can bring down the darks to what I perceive as zone 2 or 1 if I like. The goal here is to not blow out the highlights during the exposure and adjust for the blacks later. I am new to this with digital. For you pros out there, does this make sense. Any additional suggestions would be appreciated.

BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA

You learn the Zone System one of two ways, either as a complex light indexing system or as a simplification of tonal range. If you accept that every picture has pure white AND pure black in it, it's simple to apply the Zone System. But that isn't always (or even often) true. In Moonrise, AA placed the luminance of the moon, a direct reflection of the sun, at Zone VII. We're you to replicate that shot today, would you put the moon or the clouds at Zone IX, and what, if anything, would go at Zone I? Actually, you can experiment by using one of your pictures with Levels of B&W conversions and then re-converting to color. Black is 0% and White is 100%. Use your highlight and shadow pointers and then move them on the scale. Re-convert to color and see if the colors still seem reasonably (now guess why we have Curves). It's fun when you have the time and need to give yourself an excuse for a good stiff drink! Have fun......:cry: :lol: :x

SharpShooter Loc: NorCal

Doktor, if you google, "using zones, Mark Wallace", I recall he gave a short tutorial on adapting a simple zone system for digital B&W. It's basically the same as what Scott Kelby has taught in some of his NAPP tutorials. Good luck. ;-)
SS

Zone-System-Grandpa Loc: Springfield, Ohio

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With digital, using the HDR methods for exposing several frames (shots) and then processing with HDR software such as Photomatix, you can replicate the Zone System even much better than the does the Zone System original.

Should you not decide to go with HDR, you can always remember to slightly over expose when you shoot and then protect and bring out (lift) the shadowed areas in Post processing and, of course, taming down the highlights as you go.

Then, if you decide to go back to sheet film, you should remember to under expose and over develop for scenes that had been low contrast.. Then, if a scene has high contrast, remember to over expose and under develop.

Best of luck to you !

~Doug~

Zone-System-Grandpa Loc: Springfield, Ohio

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Doktor, my apology to you for not taking time to be more precise with you when I had sent you my first reply ~ as I had an early morning telephone call coming in that needed my attention.

Going back to your original question about digital zone system techniques:

When it comes to digital, I can only say ~ that which I had previously posted to you is just about all that I know about digital and the zone system ~ simply because HDR gets it done for me and it will for you too if you opt to go that route !

With HDR in digital, you normally set your camera to take three bracketed exposures whereas one exposure is one stop under exposed, one exposure is right on, and the last exposure is one stop over exposed, yet: it can be taken even further whereas you can take four, five, of more bracketed exposures so that you end up with several of them under exposed and several of them over exposed along with one exposure right on.. Then, when you go into post processing, such as with Photomatix, follow the instructions whereas all exposures are combined so that you end up with all zones being well documented in your final image.

If there is another method to accomplish such in digital ~ that is something of which I am not aware.

With film, you can use the zone system with individual sheets of film or you can use the zone system with an entire roll of film, that is, if you expose the entire roll of film the same way and then follow up by developing your roll of film in the same fashion. In other words, if the first exposure taken on your roll of film had been over exposed by one stop, you will need to take all shots on the film as being over exposed one stop.. OR, if you took your first shot being exposed, let's say, two stops under exposed, you will need to take all of the remaining shots being two stops under exposed and then when you go to develop the roll of film, you will need to develop it with more or lesser time than would normally be recommended..

Ok to better explain the zone system with film, here it is:

To begin, a spot meter is needed we should say, a spot meter is best and Pentax has always been my favorite !
For example, a Pentax spot meter reads zone V (5) and no matter what you point this spot meter at, it wants to read zone V. So, if you aim your spot meter at a black chunk of coal, your spot meter will give you an exposure that will want to render the chunk of coal as being middle gray or an image that is in zone V. Of course, this is not what you want for a black chunk of coal ! Therefore, should you want to take a photo of a scene with black objects in it and the scene also has objects in it that SHOULD BE bright white but they ARE NOT , you can aim your spot meter at the lump of coal and then set your lens to expose the coal 4 stops under exposed and this will also reduce the white down to zone 6 which is not good if you develop the film normally because the whites in the scene should fall into zone 10 if you want for them to appear bright white on your print. Therefore, you must adjust your developing time whereby you over develop the film by several minutes longer (or 20% longer per stop) than the package of the film had recommended as being a normal developing time. But, always remember that film can only record seven zones. Yes, I am sorry to say this, but it is the physical characteristic of film ! This is why you must manipulate your exposing time and your developing time whereas you are able to stretch the film's limitations. In other words, you must under expose your film and over develop the film in in your darkroom for those scenes that had been drab and without much contrast.

Now, if you are faced with the opposite situation whereas the scene is high contrast, you will need to follow the same way of thinking, but in the opposite, whereby you take a spot meter reading of objects that you would like to see being middle gray (zone 5), and then take another reading to see what the zone other objects are that you would like to see as being black or in zone 1 and then place them in zone 1 whereas you set your lens several stops over the recommended setting that is shown on your spot meter. By doing this, the scene will end up being close to being that which you would like to see after you under develop the film in your darkroom ~ keeping in mind that a 20% reduction in developing time is equal to one stop of light being reduced for those objects that had been too bright to begin with.

Thirty five years ago, I had taught the zone system to photography students here at our local art center and all had found the zone system to be fascinating ~ and best of all, they had realized that it really worked !

Also, back in my hey day, I recall a man named Fred Picker, a student of Ansel Adams, who had published a book which had a small circular zone system exposure chart that could be cut out and affixed to the exposure dial on a Pentax spot meter and this little chart was very handy to use.. To use it, you would aim your spot meter at an object that you would like to place, let's say, in zone 10, and then you could look at the small circular chart which had been affixed to the dial and in conjunction with the spot meter's settings, it would tell you where all other objects would fall within the range of zones 0-10. Then, after setting your lens by the chart, you would know how many stops were needed to under expose your film or to over expose your film, depending upon the contrast in the scene. You may want to Google Fred Picker and see if there yet remains a few of his old publications on the market today !

Good luck, my friend, and the best to you in your endeavor delving into the zone system once again !!!!

You have my Best Regards,
~Doug~

Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)

Yes, no different than when you applied the system to color or B&W reversal film. With film negatives, any shadow detail below the dmax threshold would result in clear areas on the negative with no information. So the zone system began by ensuring that you recorded "just" enough shadow information in the areas that you wanted to, and hold back development on highlights if necessary. With reversal (and digital) you determine how much highlight detail you need and expose accordingly, with the understanding that shadows will be recorded above the noise level, but just barely. careful application of noise reduction to those shadows will result in a reasonable result.