evandr Loc: Tooele, Utah

One question, "what is your bottom line profit margin"? It better be in the millions or I must politely decline your offer :mrgreen: - but thanks for the vote of confidence, I appreciate it, really, I do.

JerrysPhotos Loc: Arkansas

This is a great discussion. You have some great ideas and also some great photos that has been posted here.. Thanks for sharing all of them.........

bobmielke Loc: Portland, OR

The general rule of thumb used to be 1/3 costs, 1/3 time, 1/3 profit.

evandr Loc: Tooele, Utah

Sounds like a good place to start a business plan! Thanks for the thought :thumbup:

PAToGraphy Loc: Portland ME area

Love your shots! And your tips. Thanks so much.

Pixel Painter Loc: Ogden, Utah

Bunch of great photos here! I know from my time frame of shooting that the world is now swamped with 'digital shooters'. A lot of my photo friends have voiced the same concerns. The 'Market' is flooded ... with good and bad. So, it's really hard to get your 'stuff' out there. I have always been able to 'supplement' my income from Photography, but not in the last 3 to 4 years. There are just too many in the business right now and I don't know how long it will take for the 'snapshooters' to get tired of it and let things return to 'normal'? (Subjective). Anyway, I have enjoyed capturing that 'instant in time' for a long time now. And I have always post-processed, but my finger tips are no longer black and 'dodge and burn' are just clicks with my mouse. I too am waiting for better times and will continue to 'click' the shutter and fool around with the 'captives' just because I enjoy it. ;-)

Sunrise In Canyonlands

evandr Loc: Tooele, Utah

Outstanding shot :thumbup: As for the market, persistence will pay off in the end. Point-and-shooters discourage easily so those who have to wade through the mess will eventually see the work of a good photographer even if they miss it the first time.

My father used to like to point out the difference in batting averages between a farm league player and a major league player – It’s not very much, in fact the small difference would surprise most people. I think the same holds true in photography, all you have to do is become a dedicated photographer, learn the “rules” of good photography and get to know your equipment intimately and then shoot, shoot, and shoot some more; you will eventually come out on top so don’t get discouraged and never underrate yourself – there is a lot of garbage out there so looking good is not as hard as one might think.

marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

Coming from the music world you know that won't work. If you are in a killer band charging $1000 a night, there will be some other band who isn't as killer and they will offer to do the job for $750 and the venue will take it because they save $250. The venue doesn't think long-term that you have a following and they will make more that night or have more compliments with your band which draws more people every time you're there. That has gone downhill today until now bands will play for $0 and even spend a week or two selling tickets they are given by the bar to make anything at all. If they have no following, they get no pay. If they go out and beat the streets, they may sell 100 tickets at $2 each and that's what they get for the night. Do you remember the pay to play con jobs going on in L.A. for several years?

People who steal MP3s also aren't audiophiles. They were satisfied with hissy cassettes before CDs and aren't interested in DVD quality sound nor even CD quality sound. They just want to hear the songs as cheaply as possible and the cheapest way is free ripping and downloading.

Same goes for photography. One guy charges $1800 for two photogs and 1500 shots taken, PhotoShops them all, and the family of the bride that has the money available to do so will pay the $1800 and even more for reprints so they can say they bought the best - whether it is or not.

But there will be a competitor who does a similar job for $1200, although he doesn't do it as well, takes less shots and his amateur wife is the second photog, and those who don't want to spend $1800 will hire him instead. That pertains to $900, $750, $500, and even lower package prices. I'm sure there are people still looking around to find $150 photographers and finding them. And then there are those looking for free...

Lately I've seen a lot of Uncle Joe people shooting weddings and several other relatives are all in there shooting too. Uncle Joe has a dSLR or SuperZoom P&S so the family considers him to be the expert. The rest of the snap shooters have small 10MP or 12MP P&S pocket sized units that do a reasonable job. I have to think they probably all combine their results at the bride and groom's house later and let the newly weds have the best files of their mass bulk effort for free and they run to WalMart to print. Thus there's no hired photographer and other than printing the job is done free.

So there's no re-educating people. The going mindset for most middle-class wedding couples working within a budget seems to be "How much do we HAVE to pay for photography and how can I get it cheaper?" rather than worrying about quality - because the bride wants to instead spend $8,000+ on her dress that she'll wear once.

I'd say your edge needs to be providing things that Uncle Joe can't such as; knowledge of light and how to use it, backgrounds and backdrops that Uncle Joe doesn't have access to, fine clarity and focus that Uncle Joe can't achieve, compositions Uncle Joe doesn't have creativity to envision, a SmugMug photographer's e-commerce website for people to be impressed by and order professional prints from, ability to tell a story and catch facial expressions that Uncle Joe doesn't even know exist, and use PhotoShop skills to make your photos "pop" that Uncle Joe doesn't comprehend.

As sick as this may seem, it's also important to use a more bizarre camera system than Uncle Joe to show your expertise at buying the right stuff to create a better product - whether it does or not. An Alzo vertical-horizontal flip bracket/grip with an arm 1 foot above the camera with your flash mounted up there and coil cord connected to the hot shoe looks WAY more pro. Add a small bounce umbrella on the back with the flash reversed into it and you're really a pro (to the untrained eye). Or use some other bizarre diffuser like a velcro'd nylon softbox slipped on the front of your flash. A Gary Fong transluscent stovepipe diffuser will make their heads spin! Uncle Joe's Nikon D3000 with built-in flash looks like a hack rig from Target when you show up!

A large percentage of people are still awed and amazed by a stunning photo though, especially very large vivid crisp ones, and those are the ones you can market yourself to with prices that may seem high from your perspective (knowing the costs involved) but high price can imply a quality that must be paid dearly for.

evandr Loc: Tooele, Utah

[quote=marcomarks]

My sister, owner of Jolley Photography, is an internationally known master photographer (as is her husband) and does so well with her word-of-mouth clients that she does not even bother with weddings any more but when she did she commanded top money and always got it but she was/is worth it.

It is true that the economy is forcing many to settle for less than the best but there is plenty of top paying jobs for someone who works for the reputation to be sought after. As one increases their skill and reputation the fees will do likewise. If you start at the top of the pay range without paying your professional dues then that too will resonate throughout your clientel and you will crash and burn. That is why the best way to start in the wedding field is to become an apprentice to a good established pro and leartn all you can (it does not have to take a long time, a few months with a busy pro will do it for you if you are intent on learning), then, and only then, will you have the footing to venture out on your own, otherwise you better have exceptional natural skills because for you it is a crap shoot.

Above all be honest, tell the client that you are just starting out and if they want the very best and are willing to pay for it then they should look elsewhere and then have the names and contact info for one or two top professionals, reccommend them and they will return the favor to you with those who cannot afford them - being a professional photographer is a business so treat it like one. Don't ruin yourself thinking your all that when you are not!

marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

[quote=evandr]

I don't think it's just the economy causing people to settle for less than the best... I think it's today's mindset of our society. Those who have money to burn DO still go for the best because they don't think about value as much as they think about stature, paying for the best available, and what people say about them and their possessions. They are also the ones you really want to attract as clients because they are the word-of-mouth people. Last I heard, world renowned photographer Gary Fong was charging $20,000 a day plus expenses for his services (and it's probably far more now that he doesn't really want to do it anymore) before a single print was created. He can and he does because of having that class of clientele.

But clients who do pretty well in life, but aren't wealthy, are looking for ways to shave corners to become wealthier instead of getting the very best. If it's not the very best but quite good, that's good enough to fool others into thinking it's the best - which is where Mr. Competitor comes in and undercuts the higher-priced photographic artists.

And then there is the growing segment of society looking for ways to get everything free or as cheap as possible in all socio-economic categories. I think this is a cancerous plague for the service and retail industries, headed up by Internet commerce, rather than a desperate need because of economy. Of course there are those who just can't afford things because of the economy but there's a big difference between can't and won't.

Having spent 40 years in retail, I've seen a huge change from a high percentage of people asking about the best brands they could possibly afford for their budget and determining how they would pay for it over a period of time, to a high percentage of people today looking for the cheapest Chinese clone they can find because they are now shopping with a short-term "commodity" mindset. This buyer lacks brand loyalty, country of origin loyalty, and doesn't take brand reputation or top quality into the equation.

There was the day when Goldstar, LG, and Samsung couldn't sell a microwave oven in the U.S. and they sat dusty on shelves. Then U.S. brands started putting their labels on the very same foreign ovens and importing instead of manufacturing - that was the beginning of the end for that industry. The public learned that fact and started buying from the foreign companies and bypassing the brand name middle-men. Then the brand names virtually vanished and Goldstar, LG, Samsung, Sharp, and Panasonic swept 100% of the market. Mom and Pop stores vanished because profit was so low they couldn't afford to pay the light bill. Best Buy flourished with bulk quantity purchasing power Mom and Pop couldn't get.

My most recent retail stint was in musical instruments for school band. Five to six years ago, most customers asked about U.S.-built instruments and wanted nothing less. They were 30% more expensive than Taiwanese units and 50% more expensive than Chinese units but they didn't care. They demanded an American brand, American Union made, and worth paying for as a long term investment that their grand kids could probably use two decades from now.

As of the last two years, the mindset of that same socioeconomic class of people was, "I'm not going to pay $865 for a $1200 [insert instrument]. Don't you have something cheaper? I can get a [insert instrument] on eBay for $179." It wasn't that they couldn't afford quality and U.S.-built, it's that they wouldn't. This same person goes home and has conversations with friends about how there aren't any U.S. jobs anymore as they cause the loss of American jobs.

The local retailer wanting to sell them a U.S.-built [insert instrument] for 30% to 40% off of the published and printed retail price (so he can make 10 to 15% gross profit before expenses) has become the devil incarnate, no better than the worst slick used car salesman with a pitchfork in hand, because he doesn't carry the $179 whatever that he makes $15 to $20 gross profit on. The eBay huckster makes $15 X 100 per week from his basement until he decides to carry cell phones instead, Mom & Pop music retailer vanishes forever.

Mom & Pop store is no longer your neighbor who dispenses services, honest advice, accessories, lessons, etc. to support the purchase you loyally made from the local store - at least until the $179 whatever comes via UPS and doesn't work at all. Then the instrument-shaped-object is taken to the local store for service - which is impossible because of lack of parts availability and parts made of materials that can't be soldered, etc. Then the local dealer is considered even more evil because he can't support the no-name crap purchase.

Times are changing fast, mindsets are changing fast, and either you have an edge that appeals to the wealthy and semi-wealthy or you battle with the "I want it free or as cheap as possible" growing segment of our society.

As we discussed in this forum a couple weeks ago, big vulgar watermarking is necessary today on all printed or Internet proofs you create or your clients will try to scan them and have reprints made so they don't have to buy from you. They don't even feel a twinge of guilt about ripping you off.

Thom Loc: Cleveland Ohio

I believe eventually the profession will still rise to the top for the professional....just like back in the day of the DJ vs Live Band thing...I was part of that era...had a wedding band and was pretty much bumped from the scene....and now the Uncle Joe DJ services are defunked... so will the Uncle Joe Photo services will be the same....education and not lowering your price to compete, but to add "give-aways"..to the customer! This may not work in all industries of photography, but most!!!....We need to be savy business people..yes?

forbescat

So I'm wondering...how many of you who are willing to barter and those of you who are earning money doing events and those of you who are selling your pictures at art fairs have established legitimate businesses and duly report earnings or are you part of the underground economy?

fireman120 Loc: Sarasota, Fl.

I have found a niche in shooting car shows and classics, as for weddings; please the bride , she is the only one that counts !

marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

I was part of that band vs DJ thing as well. In my area it still hasn't recovered although a lot of Uncle Joe services are gone. I'd guess 90% of receptions are still done by DJs. In a city of 450,000, I'd suggest there are 10 to 12 wedding bands here. Yet there are DJs with 10+ systems out working them all every weekend. I met one a couple months ago who has a house gig at a prestigious hall and they've built the speakers into the ceiling, installed his lights around the dance floor in the center of the room, and he has a permanent booth on a riser in the corner. He said he has 74 gigs already booked at that hall for the next year and has three other guys out working mobile systems as well. He doesn't have a day job during the week.

Unfortunately I don't call that a comeback of bands. At least here it's more like the bands accepting the scraps from those who are baby boomer age and want live musicians.

marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

How do you market that? Take shots of cars as they are displayed and give your card to the car owner so they can order prints? Or do you hand your card to the owner, get their name, and take shots somewhere else at a later date as a "portrait session" type job?