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raw or tiff
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Nov 14, 2014 11:35:08   #
Wendy2 Loc: California
 
FredB wrote:
Sorry, but the highlighted statement is not correct. When you edit a raw file, whether you save to TIFF or JPEG is immaterial. You are confusing the LOSSY (compressed) saves that happen to a JPEG file with the LOSSLESS (uncompressed) format of a TIFF file.

An edited raw file will always be re-editable, since the changes do not overwrite original data, but are saved as a sidecar or other mechanism.


No again. I know Lossy and Lossless and the difference. I am not talking about the Raw file. I know Raw files are not changed and you can start from scratch with a Raw file ,no matter how many times you have edited that file, it remains intact. I am only talking about the difference between Tiff and Jpeg files. You save a file to Jpeg and all the editing steps are no longer visible. When you reopen the Jpeg all you see is the file, no editing steps you took. When you open a Tiff file in your editing program you see every step you took in your editing process, as long as you did not merge or flatten it. You can certainly continue to edit the Jpeg but you can not go back and edit a particular step. With Tiff, all your steps are saved and you can tweak any one of those steps.

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Nov 14, 2014 11:35:56   #
cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA
 
Easyrider wrote:
So shoot in raw and save it in tiff over jpeg if it's an important file
Did I get it right?

Rich


IMHO... I shoot in raw and save my raw files forever. If convert to make prints, I save the final version I printed as well. I ofter mass convert to jpeg for sharing, posting, etc., and, for the most part, delete those. That's just my workflow. I consider a RAW file, a digital negative, so thats what I save. It works for me quite well. YMMV!

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Nov 14, 2014 11:45:11   #
FredB Loc: A little below the Mason-Dixon line.
 
Wendy2 wrote:
No again. I know Lossy and Lossless and the difference. I am not talking about the Raw file. I know Raw files are not changed and you can start from scratch with a Raw file ,no matter how many times you have edited that file, it remains intact. I am only talking about the difference between Tiff and Jpeg files. You save a file to Jpeg and all the editing steps are no longer visible. When you reopen the Jpeg all you see is the file, no editing steps you took. When you open a Tiff file in your editing program you see every step you took in your editing process, as long as you did not merge or flatten it. You can certainly continue to edit the Jpeg but you can not go back and edit a particular step. With Tiff, all your steps are saved and you can tweak any one of those steps.
No again. I know Lossy and Lossless and the diffe... (show quote)


Please see my update to the response back on Page 5 - I think I've figured it out. You use Photoshop or a flavor of it, don't you? Photoshop has the ability to save file changes and then reapply or remove them from the original. THAT'S what you are explaining, no?

This is a feature of Photoshop and/or Lightroom, not of TIFF per se.

Confusion lessened. I hope.

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Nov 14, 2014 11:54:10   #
Wendy2 Loc: California
 
FredB wrote:
Please see my update to the response back on Page 5 - I think I've figured it out. You use Photoshop or a flavor of it, don't you? Photoshop has the ability to save file changes and then reapply or remove them from the original. THAT'S what you are explaining, no?

This is a feature of Photoshop and/or Lightroom, not of TIFF per se.

Confusion lessened. I hope.


Yes, I use CS6. Maybe that is the answer to the confusion. We were speaking a different language. ;)

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Nov 14, 2014 11:57:35   #
FredB Loc: A little below the Mason-Dixon line.
 
Wendy2 wrote:
Yes, I use CS6. Maybe that is the answer to the confusion. We were speaking a different language. ;)
Ok, good. You had me going there for a while. Once I glommed onto the possibility that you were thinking of a feature of PS or LR, a couple of quick googles brought up pages that confirmed your statements with regard to TIFF files.

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Nov 14, 2014 12:06:54   #
Wendy2 Loc: California
 
FredB wrote:
Ok, good. You had me going there for a while. Once I glommed onto the possibility that you were thinking of a feature of PS or LR, a couple of quick googles brought up pages that confirmed your statements with regard to TIFF files.


Now see there! We solved the problem together without striking out at one another. Love it when things are resolved peacefully. Wish the world could do more of that! If just takes thinking, exploring and opening up, which you did quite well. It also helped me understand there is another world out there besides Photoshop!

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Nov 14, 2014 12:27:58   #
FredB Loc: A little below the Mason-Dixon line.
 
Wendy2 wrote:
It also helped me understand there is another world out there besides Photoshop!
I have to admit that before I went all crazy, I took a look at your website and could tell by your photos that you weren't a neophyte who got flummoxed by confusion. Your stuff is pretty good, so I realized you'd been around the block, so to speak. That's when the light dawned that you were thinking of a feature of LR/PS, possibly, and so I looked THAT up, and there it was. It's interesting that both of us were right, and neither of us were wrong, even through the confusion. Now, the question is, have we completely baffled the OP and all the followers of this by now mind-boggling thread? Or has everyone else moved on to discussions of Canon vs Nikon, and left us to our own designs?

Cheers.

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Nov 14, 2014 12:35:13   #
Lima Bean Loc: Finger Lakes NY
 
Easyrider wrote:
What's the better file over JPEG Raw or TIFF

Rich


I was asked a related question by grandson. How much bigger are....files? I took a stack of 33 NEF files off his camera and batch converted it to TIF, DNG and JPG.
Results are based upon sum of 33 files using file size indicated by Windows Commander.
Ratio is sum for each file type divided by the sum for NEF files.
Summations and ratios calculated in Excel. List below indicates conversion tool in "tool ".

NEF ratio: 1
"Nikon NX2" to TIF (NEF imbedded) ratio 6.96
"Adobe DNG Converter" to DNG ratio 1.77
"Adobe PS Elements" to JPG ratio 0.56
"IRFAN" to JPG ratio 0.25
"IRFAN" to TIF ratio 3.47

Format stability, TIF and JPG are defined by industrial technical committees by but each type has variables that will modify file size. This variation is illustrated by differences between IrFan and other creators. NEF is controlled by Nikon and varies with camera. DNG is controlled by Adobe and is stable as long as Adobe exists.

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Nov 14, 2014 12:44:24   #
bdk Loc: Sanibel Fl.
 
I always shoot in RAW, then make any changes etc in PS then save it as a TIFF . If I need to send it over the net or if I want to post it on line , I then make a JPG and send it.

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Nov 14, 2014 13:02:52   #
redhogbill Loc: antelope, calif
 
bdk wrote:
I always shoot in RAW, then make any changes etc in PS then save it as a TIFF . If I need to send it over the net or if I want to post it on line , I then make a JPG and send it.


BINGO!!!!!!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Nov 14, 2014 13:04:37   #
Wendy2 Loc: California
 
FredB wrote:
I have to admit that before I went all crazy, I took a look at your website and could tell by your photos that you weren't a neophyte who got flummoxed by confusion. Your stuff is pretty good, so I realized you'd been around the block, so to speak. That's when the light dawned that you were thinking of a feature of LR/PS, possibly, and so I looked THAT up, and there it was. It's interesting that both of us were right, and neither of us were wrong, even through the confusion. Now, the question is, have we completely baffled the OP and all the followers of this by now mind-boggling thread? Or has everyone else moved on to discussions of Canon vs Nikon, and left us to our own designs?

Cheers.
I have to admit that before I went all crazy, I to... (show quote)


Thanks for the accolades! Well, yes I am sure others are confused but then so I am, since I am not familiar with other programs. But that's OK, I am good with what I use. Tans again!!

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Nov 14, 2014 14:10:55   #
Slick Willie Loc: The U. S.
 
Remember when you loaded film, took some shots, took it to the lab, and told them you wanted an 8x10? Every time I see one of these threads that turn like this one did from a single question to people with way too much knowledge who get bogged down in an argument in a display of superfluous information not pertinent to the original question that serves only to permit the next expert to say something that stomps on the last expert who contributed, I am reminded of a comedy skit I saw back about 1989. If you want to see what I'm talking tune in at the 3:50 point at the following url and watch for about 2 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si-mxn-kROU.

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Nov 14, 2014 16:31:56   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
FredB wrote:
Sorry, but the highlighted statement is not correct. When you edit a raw file, whether you save to TIFF or JPEG is immaterial. You are confusing the LOSSY (compressed) saves that happen to a JPEG file with the LOSSLESS (uncompressed) format of a TIFF file.

An edited raw file will always be re-editable, since the changes do not overwrite original data, but are saved as a sidecar or other mechanism.

UPDATE:
Ok, I've gone back over your original statement, my first reply, your response, and now my 2nd response. I am completely puzzled by your statement that TIFF files somehow retain all the editing actions that you make on them.

Are you saying that you can edit a raw file, make a bunch of changes to it, save the edited raw as a TIFF file, and then open the TIFF file and be able to UNDO the changes that were made while you were editing the raw file? That doesn't make any sense.

Or are you saying that you can open a TIFF file, make a bunch of changes, save it, then re-open it and undo those changes? Huh? I've never heard of this capability. I know all about the ability to UNDO in varying amounts, during a SINGLE session with various editors, but I've never heard of the ability to 'store' edits to a TIFF file and then re-open it, ostensibly days later, and UNDO those individual editing actions.

Now, it may be that your P/P program somehow saves actions done against a TIFF file, so that you can reopen that same file later and undo those actions, but that's a function of the P/P software, not a TIFF file generically.

I do not use Photoshop or any of its derivatives so perhaps that's where this confusion comes in?
Sorry, but the highlighted statement is not correc... (show quote)


If you save the edited file to the editors own file format then you will be saving the layers you used, and can go back and change/adjust those layers. it is the difference to collapsing the file when saved as a TIFF or JPG. However if you save your JPG at 100% there is almost no compression - even at 90% you won't know it - and can alter and save several times at that level with no discernible difference.

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Nov 14, 2014 16:36:28   #
pecohen Loc: Central Maine
 
Easyrider wrote:
What's the better file over JPEG Raw or TIFF

Rich

I use all three myself. I shoot in RAW and do as much processing as I can with the RAW format before saving it as a TIFF image. I do some final touch-up with a different editor. In rare cases I may save the result in TIFF so I can come back to edit some more but when I'm happy with the results I save those results in uncompressed JPEG before deleting the intermediate TIFF files (they're pretty big).

A lot of my photography - nearly all of it really - is to record memories of trips or events. After finalizing the JPEG files I try to find time to collect them into high-def video(WMV format). These videos I find much more pleasant to watch than any photo-album.

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Nov 14, 2014 16:51:49   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Delderby wrote:
If you save the edited file to the editors own file format then you will be saving the layers you used, and can go back and change/adjust those layers. it is the difference to collapsing the file when saved as a TIFF or JPG. However if you save your JPG at 100% there is almost no compression - even at 90% you won't know it - and can alter and save several times at that level with no discernible difference.


At 100% quality a jpg is compressed 2.6:1 - a 26 mb file is compressed to 10 mb. And it goes downhill from there. Saving at less than 100% quality resets the max quality - ie if you save at 70%, then it becomes the new 100% etc.

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