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High shutter speeds (like 1/4000) useless for freezing motion?
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Sep 30, 2011 20:49:46   #
jkaye65 Loc: Chico, CA
 
I'm not into the numbers of how fast something goes vs the shutter speed and whether it will accurately stop the motion.

From experience, however, I have used fast shutter speeds for lots of sports with no visible motion blur.

While in Egypt I took a shot of Hosni Mubarak's helicopter as it circled over before landing. At 1/4000th of a second the rotor blades looked perfectly stopped. Maybe if it was enlarged a small amount of movement might be perceptable.

In the photo it was cool to see a huge copter stopped and "hanging" in the air.

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Sep 30, 2011 21:07:01   #
evandr Loc: Tooele, Utah
 
BigD wrote:
Evandr I was trying to agree with you but I replied wrong. I'm gonna stop watching this thread its getting silly.

Thanks - I think enough has been said on this topic too.

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Sep 30, 2011 21:13:14   #
Archangel
 
jkaye65 wrote:
I'm not into the numbers of how fast something goes vs the shutter speed and whether it will accurately stop the motion.

From experience, however, I have used fast shutter speeds for lots of sports with no visible motion blur.

While in Egypt I took a shot of Hosni Mubarak's helicopter as it circled over before landing. At 1/4000th of a second the rotor blades looked perfectly stopped. Maybe if it was enlarged a small amount of movement might be perceptable.

In the photo it was cool to see a huge copter stopped and "hanging" in the air.
I'm not into the numbers of how fast something goe... (show quote)


I would like to see that picture.

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Sep 30, 2011 21:21:12   #
evandr Loc: Tooele, Utah
 
BigD wrote:
"So it seems that higher shutter speed is a mechanism for controlling the amount of light that gets onto each photosite of the sensor to control overall exposure settings, but it won't work for freezing motion."

No we did not move into discussing HSS just to argue. The above part of the OP postulates that a fast Shutter won't "work for freezing motion" and then asks if he is right or wrong. That was answered in about a second (he was wrong).

Then we went off to try and explain that his understanding of 1st and 2nd curtain and how "mechanically" it worked trying to pass along some information that was absolutely pertinent to the topic if you want to begin a serious discussion about how the Shutter freezes motion. HSS came into it because some reply's thought that a strobe was the thing that froze the motion. The difference between the Eye and the Shutter came in because some didn't understand how the Flash worked with HSS (because it worked for their eye to see fast things). The OP was basically correct about the Shutter controlling the amount of light that reaches the Sensor but the topic (some of us felt) could stand a little expanding. My original reply answered the question that was asked and then tried to quantify my reply, the resulting frenzy occurred when certain other people disagreed with some of my point and we discussed them, BIG DEAL.

Like I said in my earlier reply after some people started to basically argue with what is generally an accepted fact (that a high speed Shutter does stop motion), if we cannot expand on a topic and hear from those that might be more informed why have a forum? Is this site like a court where certain "facts" are not allowed because they were not part of this exact topic? Even though they might just take the topic in a direction where people can pickup some good information? Then there are those that feel it necessary to post a reply about people that posted a reply so they can accomplish what? And within their "sensible" reply they draw the same conclusion we did but provide nothing additional. Seems to me those are the people that just want to bicker.

I actually thought that by exploring the topic of freezing motion in its entirety we might have some really cool input from people but that is far from what I got. So I apologize for trying to go too deep and trust me it won't happen again. I have to prepare for a big shoot now and It just might involve a fast Shutter so wish me luck.
"So it seems that higher shutter speed is a m... (show quote)


No need to apologize, going deep is what keeps it interesting; so what if the "answer" covered more than the OP required, I dare say that a few people here learned things they never would have or at least had things they had not thought of in a long time brought to the surface - it's all good - thanks for the input.

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Sep 30, 2011 21:32:06   #
evandr Loc: Tooele, Utah
 
photosbysexton wrote:
evandr wrote:
photosbysexton wrote:


KG, I think you have been given some bad information. There are not two physical curtains in your shutter. 1st curtain refers to the opening of the shutter, 2nd curtain refers to the closing of the shutter. So, when you are setting your flash to 2nd curtain, you are actually forcing the flash to activate just before the shutter closes. This is very effective when using slower shutter speeds to blur the action but freeze one subject in the image. Try taking a shot of someone walking towards you in the evening with a 1 second shutter speed using 2nd curtain flash. You will see the them nice and clear with an action blur behind them. Or try first curtain and you will see the blur in front of the clear image. This is what I've perceived from the turorials that I've read.

M
br br KG, I think you have been given some bad i... (show quote)


Wrong, wrong, wrong - there are two curtains, you cannot now, nor is it possible to get an even exposure with only one nor will one be able to open and close at the speeds that a DSLR will go to (1/8000+).

Consider, the curtain begins to open and those first pixels start to expose; as the curtain continues each successive vertical line of pixels start to expose so through the whole process of opening each line starts to expose at a different time; when the curtain is fully open that last line of pixels has just started to expose while the first line has been exposing for a long time (relatively speaking); now, if what you say is true and there was only one curtain it would have to start its closing cycle and that would mean stopping the last row of pixels that started during the opening cycle from exposing while the first is still exposing. Can you see what I am saying, in such a case the end result would be a picture that would be properly exposed on that first row of pixels while each successive row of pixels would be progressively underexposed until, on the other side of the picture, there would be nothing but black. It takes a shutter speed of less than 1/250th of a secont to achieve a fully exposed sensor (first curtain fully open before the second starts to close) at which time the flash can fire without shutter shadows.

You must also consider the mechanical limitations, there is no way that a physical shutter can open and close in 1/8000th of a second, it is just not possible, that is why the Iris shutter in a hasselblad can only reach speeds of 1/800th of a second and that is a camera with technology costing $20,00+.

To achieve an even exposure at the speeds a DSLR can attain the first curtain has to be opening followed closely by the second curtain closing behind it. That is why the concept of Flash sync is important, so important that most cameras will not allow you to set shutter speeds above 250 to 350 because only a narrow vertical line of the picture will be exposed because the flash is much faster than the curtains leaving the only part of the picture exposed to the flash being that part that was open between the front physical curtain and the second physical curtain.

At exposures of 1/8000th of a second the opening between the two curtains would be extremely thin and moving as fast as the physical properties of the camera will allow leaving each column of pixels to have the exact same exposure time.
quote=photosbysexton br br KG, I think you have... (show quote)


After much digging I did discover that I was wrong, somewhat anyway. Yes there are 2 curtains, one opening, the other closing. My deepest apologies, but yet, my sincere thanks as well. It seems that I learned something again tonight. Now I can go rest. Now, back to the original question; what was it again?
quote=evandr quote=photosbysexton br br KG, I ... (show quote)


Anyone who is willing to admit their mistakes will do well, Lord knows I have eaten my share of crow over the years, everybody does; having our knowledge tested and corrected if necessary is the cost of the right of passage, it's how we gain a firm foundation while we learn and then teach a thing or two along the way - thanks for participating, you have my respect.

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