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Feb 16, 2014 23:12:16   #
James Shaw
 
jaymatt wrote:
Do away with Roundup and watch your grocery prices double.


If our grocery prices double, then perhaps we should eat half as much, and be healthier for it! Too many Americans eat way too much, anyway. I'd rather be healthier and watch the butterflies. LOL
Thanks,
- Jim

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Feb 16, 2014 23:26:20   #
Ozzie Loc: Australia(NSW)
 
I have a friend in San Diego who arranges Monarch-Tours every year. In fact he is there now, as we speak. I think if one wants firsthand knowledge (he is a Lepidopterist),
one needs to speak to him first. Dr Toone would be the man I will speak to before doing something in haste.
He's only back on the 24th and then I'm away....will do a post after the 15th March.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention at least....as you can see..I'm on the other side of the world.

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Feb 16, 2014 23:49:27   #
James Shaw
 
Jerry M wrote:
Jim, Thanks. It just made me curious because I deal with environmental policy and the Endangered Species Act for a living and was struck by the far-reaching conclusion that “…all signs point toward Monsanto as the main culprit.” Some quick research confirmed that, in fact, the monarch butterfly is under stress world-wide which could be caused, in part, by the eradication of its nesting plant, the milkweed- and Monsanto is the manufacturer of Roundup which kills the milkweed. But that is about where the facts stop on that issue. You then managed to reach the conclusion that “a key link in our food chain is under threat.” Pretty far reaching! It didn’t seem like a logical jump and it sounded like the typical hysteria that environmental groups do for fundraising, so I thought I would ask what you meant. Thanks for the response --and I have no doubt you believe what you are saying.
I will admit that the Monarch is beautiful and we should be concerned if it is indeed in “grave danger” and “on the verge of being a relic of history.” Especially if we know what is causing its demise, right? In truth, the language you used, or copied from the site, was a pretty good tip-off. One could just substitute “polar bear” or “harp seal” and have the same heart-wrenching sense of dread about the loss of a beautiful species. I could be moved by that plea, if it is true-- and if I knew who circulated the petition. Your assertions seemed a little hyperbolic and the source was apparently solely from the link you supplied. I realized: I have heard that story before.
So, just out of curiosity, I did a little research on SumOfUs.org, only to find that this “Monsanto Petition” is just the latest in a series of hysterical campaigns they have undertaken. I had never heard of the organization before but just a little research quickly showed that they are a fairly new part of the liberal, anti-capitalist, professional left (read that socialist/Marxist/anti-capitalist left) that trades on crisis after crisis--with or without facts or truth to substantiate their claims. Their website describes the organization thusly: “SumOfUs is a movement of consumers, workers and shareholders speaking with one voice to counterbalance the growing power of large corporations.” In short, they are anti-corporate political activists. Monsanto is just the latest in their anti-corporate attacks. (By the way, I know nothing about Monsanto and don’t have anything to do with them.)
As of March, 2012, the SumOfUs’ list of corporate criminals included: Apple, Starbucks, Novartis, Walmart, Carlsberg, Verizon, Microsoft, Google, Bank of America, Coca-Cola, Yoplait, Lowes, Trader Joes and Johnson & Johnson. Each of these groups committed various mortal sins (against “workers,” animals, the rain forest, the climate and God knows what else), for which SumOfUs started a campaign doing exactly what you are assisting them in doing with the monarch: Pulling on some heartstrings and getting people to “sign petitions” and send their names and email addresses to them –which they WILL use for fundraising purposes. What you don’t know (but you will soon) is that they are using you, and the other UHH members who gave them email addresses, to support their “green mail” (like black mail) of major corporations. And you will be hearing from them.
Who are they? One excellent (and obviously critical) description of the leadership of SumOfUs says: “It reads like a big tub of dirty laundry, the same names that are continually recycled from one group to another, churned over and over again under a multitude of NGO names that just keep expanding and growing like a cancer.” These people come from and return to the Soros Foundation, the Tides Foundation, Moveon.org, 350.org, OxFam, Blue State Digital, Organizing For Action, to another of George Soros’ organizations called New American Dream and on, and on. They are the non-profit merry-go-round collecting email addresses and donations from unwitting people like you and children who want to save (fill in anything warm, fuzzy and pretty).
Any of you UHH readers that signed the so called “petition” to Monsanto will soon be receiving fundraising requests from them and dozens of other leftie anti-corporate, socialist groups, some mentioned above.
And Jim, there are some poor victims out there--- but they’re not the beautiful monarch butterflies that we all love. They are you and the other UHH readers that believed what you read and signed the petition to be on the donor list for some poor butterfly that they don’t really give a damn about. As soon as they wear this one out, they will move on to the next crisis and forget about the monarch. Don’t send them any money. I suggest you put them on junk mail as well as be a bit more discerning about what you put your name and email address on. And in the future, do a little due diligence on the groups you give your email address to. Any questions?
Jim, Thanks. It just made me curious because I dea... (show quote)

_________
Hi Jerry M. I do not contribute monetarily to political campaigns or to other causes, just for some of the reasons that you mention, and you did an excellent job explaining your side of things. Whose is right? What is killing the bees and butterflies? Honestly, I don't know the full answer. I do know that weed killers are overused, and that they kill weeds that grow along the highways and elsewhere, and that the milkweed is eaten by the Monarch and it is a weed where it lays its eggs. And I hate the word "weed." It's just another flowering plant.

There is no right or wrong at this point, in my mind. The important thing is that we are discussing it, as should be. I don't take a stand for or against Monsanto and perhaps the statement at the URL was overdone for pointing out Monsanto, specifically.

I think most people are smart enough to make the right choices, collectively, when the truth is known for sure, but discussion is first, and that's where we are at this point. Fear not, neither Monsanto nor the other corporations that you mention will collapse, based on our discussions here. And for those who are out to get those corporations (as you suggest), they are just a passing fancy and will evaporate like all hate mongers given enough time. I have faith in the American people to do the right thing.
Thanks for your comments,
- Jim

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Feb 16, 2014 23:50:02   #
wlgoode Loc: Globe, AZ
 
Ozzie wrote:
I have a friend in San Diego who arranges Monarch-Tours every year. In fact he is there now, as we speak. I think if one wants firsthand knowledge (he is a Lepidopterist),
one needs to speak to him first. Dr Toone would be the man I will speak to before doing something in haste.
He's only back on the 24th and then I'm away....will do a post after the 15th March.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention at least....as you can see..I'm on the other side of the world.


I saw a Nature show on PBS last month. The Monarchs migrate from the US to a particular area in the Mexican Mountains. The local village gets a large portion of their income from tourism generated by the Monarchs.
The Monarchs didn't show last season. The village is hurting.

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Feb 17, 2014 00:17:07   #
jaymatt Loc: Alexandria, Indiana
 
James Shaw wrote:
_________
Hi Jerry M. I do not contribute monetarily to political campaigns or to other causes, just for some of the reasons that you mention, and you did an excellent job explaining your side of things. Whose is right? What is killing the bees and butterflies? Honestly, I don't know the full answer. I do know that weed killers are overused, and that they kill weeds that grow along the highways and elsewhere, and that the milkweed is eaten by the Monarch and it is a weed where it lays its eggs. And I hate the word "weed." It's just another flowering plant.

There is no right or wrong at this point, in my mind. The important thing is that we are discussing it, as should be. I don't take a stand for or against Monsanto and perhaps the statement at the URL was overdone for pointing out Monsanto, specifically.

I think most people are smart enough to make the right choices, collectively, when the truth is known for sure, but discussion is first, and that's where we are at this point. Fear not, neither Monsanto nor the other corporations that you mention will collapse, based on our discussions here. And for those who are out to get those corporations (as you suggest), they are just a passing fancy and will evaporate like all hate mongers given enough time. I have faith in the American people to do the right thing.
Thanks for your comments,
- Jim
_________ br Hi Jerry M. I do not contribute mone... (show quote)


According to definition, any plant that grows where it isn't wanted is a weed. A beautiful rose growing in a tulip garden is a weed if you don't want it there.

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Feb 17, 2014 00:22:10   #
jaymatt Loc: Alexandria, Indiana
 
James Shaw wrote:
If our grocery prices double, then perhaps we should eat half as much, and be healthier for it! Too many Americans eat way too much, anyway. I'd rather be healthier and watch the butterflies. LOL
Thanks,
- Jim


What about all the folks who can't afford their groceries now? Apparently doubling prices wouldn't hurt you, and I'd survive as well. But what about those barely scraping by? More people on the dole? More people overseas starving? More of our own starving because they can't afford food? That doesn't appeal to me at all. We aren't simply talking about affluent Americans here; we're talking about the world food supply.

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Feb 17, 2014 05:52:43   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
jaymatt wrote:
According to definition, any plant that grows where it isn't wanted is a weed. A beautiful rose growing in a tulip garden is a weed if you don't want it there.

That's what my wise old grandmother told me back in 1966.

Here is a picture of my yellow rose weed which grows in my cactus garden. It is the most persistent plant ever. I have chopped it down to the ground, dug out the roots, withheld water, even used Roundup on it! Like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going and going.



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Feb 17, 2014 06:04:37   #
GARGLEBLASTER Loc: Spain
 
russelray wrote:
Here is a picture of my yellow rose weed which grows in my cactus garden. It is the most persistent plant ever. I have chopped it down to the ground, dug out the roots, withheld water, even used Roundup on it! Like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going and going.


Why would you want to kill anything as beautiful as that?

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Feb 17, 2014 06:15:43   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
GARGLEBLASTER wrote:
Why would you want to kill anything as beautiful as that?

Because it's a weed. It's growing where I don't want it to grow.

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Feb 17, 2014 10:00:51   #
jaymatt Loc: Alexandria, Indiana
 
Apparently you like it, so it's not a weed.

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Feb 17, 2014 10:40:13   #
Jerry M
 
wlgoode, I looked at the site you sent along. I started to forward it to my apiarist friend but thought I would look through the site and see what it was all about. Sort of applying the rules I laid out above for others when taking the word of seeming experts on websites. I discovered a few things that made me question anything on the site. I thought it VERY interesting that under the ALIENS tab it said:
Extraterrestrial and extradimensional visitors are a fact that is becoming harder and harder to dismiss by ridicule. There is now too much evidence and too many high-level individuals are coming forward with their stories. The question is now when official disclosure finally happens.
OK, let’s keep an open mind about ET and his friends. Maybe they are here from somewhere and maybe even in a couple of dimensions. Next Tab, please.
It was when I went to the People tab that I really began to question the site. Under “People who made a difference,” the site lists Hugo Chavez, Edward Snowden and Bradley Manning. For anyone who has been living under a rock, Chavez is the recently deceased communist dictator of Venezuela and Snowden and Manning are two US traitors who are the darlings of the left. One is in jail and the other hiding in Europe somewhere. All are praised because they took on the world corporatism and the establishment military. Sounds strangely like the same crap that the SumOfUs.org puts out and then tries to collect money from readers to support their agenda.
And then, the coup d’ gras that told me everything I needed to know about this joke you sent along. Buried down in the site is the link to Energy Grid University: it is an online university and they advertise as follows:
With a worldwide reputation for academic excellence, EGU is now regarded as an Ivy League university. In fact, a recent survey in the Educational Times placed us above Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Stanford, Yale and MIT for not only academic excellence, but also originality and radicalism.
Our exceptional graduate and post-graduate courses are fully accredited by us, and you can rest assured that any qualification you receive from us can very easily and
legally be printed after your name and displayed on your wall.
Note that the courses are fully accredited BY THEM and the degrees can be legally printed BY YOU. And guess what, I have just printed my degree a few minutes ago. The test was quite difficult, “want color is the sky?” “How many fingers and toes do I have?” yes those are real questions and I really did print a diploma. Oh and some of the PhD’s they have granted are in “Metaphysics,” “Love,” and one was in “What the **** is Going On?” Take a look for yourself: http://www.energygrid.com/misc/university/

So, wlgoode, the whole site is a JOKE. Did you even know that? This is another of the anti-establishment, anarchist sites of the far left that spews hate and crap about the US, corporations and everything that made this country what it is today. Again, I say to UHH members, take this crap for what is worth- exactly that. Don’t take anything for granted and don’t sign up or sent these dopes your email address or MONEY. They will use it against you – and laugh about how stupid you are. Oh, wlgoode thanks for the amusement! JerryM

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Feb 17, 2014 10:41:05   #
Jerry M
 
Sorry, it is still a weed.

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Feb 17, 2014 10:42:18   #
James Shaw
 
jaymatt wrote:
According to definition, any plant that grows where it isn't wanted is a weed. A beautiful rose growing in a tulip garden is a weed if you don't want it there.


Right on jaymatt. A weed to one is not necessarily a weed to another. Some even smoke weed (LOL). A preacher-man-neighbor once told me that flowers are "just glorified weeds." So, yes, indeed, we see weeds differently. And I like the succinct definition that you gave.
Thanks,
- Jim

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Feb 17, 2014 10:50:57   #
James Shaw
 
[quote=russelray]That's what my wise old grandmother told me back in 1966.
_____
Here is a picture of my yellow rose weed which grows in my cactus garden. It is the most persistent plant ever. I have chopped it down to the ground, dug out the roots, withheld water, even used Roundup on it! Like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going and going.[/quote
-------
russelray. I must say what a beautiful weed! Wish I had it in my garden!! Didn't know it was so difficult to get rid of roses. And to think I just planted 3 "weeds" (knockout roses) in my garden a year ago.
Thanks for the beautiful picture,
- Jim

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Feb 17, 2014 11:19:19   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
jaymatt wrote:
Apparently you like it, so it's not a weed.

Nope. I despise it. It's a weed.

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