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Raising The Minimum Wage Has Unintended Consequences
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Dec 2, 2013 14:53:52   #
JBTaylor Loc: In hiding again
 
georgevedwards wrote:
Yeah, that's what I say, there are no unemployed, just people looking for a paid vacation. (I hope you become unemployed soon)(I just want you to have a vacation)


Of course it's not everybody but it might explain why my long ago frequently unemployed former brother in-law used to take six months to find a new job.

Reply
Dec 2, 2013 14:54:19   #
Zophman Loc: Northwest
 
The problem with concepts like "minimum wage" laws is the results that are produced are not expected by the law maker(s). Never underestimate the creativeness and ingenuity of an entrepreneur. Rise the minimum wage for fast food workers and soon you'll see robot applications to replace human labor and/or higher levels of "self serve" venues. Most "lawmakers" do not have business backgrounds and have no idea how the minds work of business leaders. Face it: labor is an asset to the business and when it can be replaced at a lessor cost and higher output, it will be replaced. Regardless of how "human" laws are meant to be, competitiveness will always win. After all, if a business cannot operate at least break-even financially they will no longer be in business and capable of employing anyone!

Reply
Dec 2, 2013 15:15:39   #
heyrob Loc: Western Washington
 
Zophman wrote:
The problem with concepts like "minimum wage" laws is the results that are produced are not expected by the law maker(s). Never underestimate the creativeness and ingenuity of an entrepreneur. Rise the minimum wage for fast food workers and soon you'll see robot applications to replace human labor and/or higher levels of "self serve" venues. Most "lawmakers" do not have business backgrounds and have no idea how the minds work of business leaders. Face it: labor is an asset to the business and when it can be replaced at a lessor cost and higher output, it will be replaced. Regardless of how "human" laws are meant to be, competitiveness will always win. After all, if a business cannot operate at least break-even financially they will no longer be in business and capable of employing anyone!
The problem with concepts like "minimum wage&... (show quote)


Well said! Another thing no one seems to think about is that minimum wage laws are an infringement on the freedom to enter into a mutually agreed to contract. If the employer doesn't pay enough to attract workers, he either has to pay more or go out of business, but the employee on the other hand, basically has the government working as his enforcer coercing the employer to pay more than he would choose to in a truly free market. The liberals who support minimum wages have no understanding of freedom of choice, only government coercion.

Reply
 
 
Dec 2, 2013 16:34:40   #
Gitzo Loc: Indiana
 
georgevedwards wrote:
Yeah, that's what I say, there are no unemployed, just people looking for a paid vacation. (I hope you become unemployed soon)(I just want you to have a vacation)



George; I need to ask you a simple question; do you suffer from dyslexia? If you do, I'm very sorry, and I can understand why you tend to "do things" backwards; but if are NOT dyslexic, please tell me........you are reading replies to a posted topic, so WHY do reply FIRST, then re-post the topic second?

Don't you understand, in the normal course of a conversation, one party makes a statement or asks a question, then the OTHER party responds by answering the question or discussing what the first person said.

Can you imagine a conversation where person #2 answers the question first, (before person #1 has even asked it? )

But don't feel bad.......you're not the only one on UHH who posts things backwards..........

Reply
Dec 2, 2013 16:38:46   #
Gitzo Loc: Indiana
 
Bangee5 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk



Thank you, Bangee! (I used to be able to do that, but apparently I have forgotten how....)

Reply
Dec 2, 2013 16:54:38   #
Gitzo Loc: Indiana
 
rpavich wrote:
Lol...it worked just fine for many years....not sure where you think that it isn't working.

I've been working since I was 17 without a break and I'm 53 now..the system works fine...for those who want to work.



rpavich; I just noticed that you're in "west by golly"! I have probably been to more places in W.Va. that 99% of the folks who live there! (From Romney in the NE, to Matewan in the SW, from Green Bank over by Va. to Weirton in the "panhandle", and most of everyplace in between. ) I'm hoping to get over to New River Gorge in the Spring or early summer. (I miss those curvy roads! )

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Dec 2, 2013 17:08:09   #
Gitzo Loc: Indiana
 
Zophman wrote:
The problem with concepts like "minimum wage" laws is the results that are produced are not expected by the law maker(s). Never underestimate the creativeness and ingenuity of an entrepreneur. Rise the minimum wage for fast food workers and soon you'll see robot applications to replace human labor and/or higher levels of "self serve" venues. Most "lawmakers" do not have business backgrounds and have no idea how the minds work of business leaders. Face it: labor is an asset to the business and when it can be replaced at a lessor cost and higher output, it will be replaced. Regardless of how "human" laws are meant to be, competitiveness will always win. After all, if a business cannot operate at least break-even financially they will no longer be in business and capable of employing anyone!
The problem with concepts like "minimum wage&... (show quote)



Like Hey! Rob, very well said; but here's the only problem; every common sense conservative on the forum will agree with you, and understand exactly what you're saying; unfortunately, everything you have mentioned is "factual", and the liberals around here have NO respect, or tolerance for facts; they only "see" what their "elite masters" in "Gubmint" make into LAW! To them, if it's "da law", it "be good"! (except for when they want to "break it", which is everyday! )

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Dec 3, 2013 00:58:45   #
RDH
 
Gitzo wrote " I don't remember any more what the year was when the so-called "Federal Minimum Wage" was first started, but I CAN tell you, it was years and years AFTER I graduated from high school (in 1950 ), and started supporting myself. I can also assure you that between 1950 when I graduated,"


The Federal Minimum Wage was in-acted in 1938

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Dec 3, 2013 03:21:02   #
Gitzo Loc: Indiana
 
RDH wrote:
Gitzo wrote " I don't remember any more what the year was when the so-called "Federal Minimum Wage" was first started, but I CAN tell you, it was years and years AFTER I graduated from high school (in 1950 ), and started supporting myself. I can also assure you that between 1950 when I graduated,"


The Federal Minimum Wage was in-acted in 1938



Without looking it up, I'll take your word for it, but I don't remember even hearing about it until WAY after I graduated from HS. Come to think of now, In never had a minimum wage job in all the years I worked; (probably why I never paid any attention to it. )

Reply
Dec 3, 2013 08:22:39   #
Bill Cain Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Gitzo wrote:
A lot of people think that raising the minimum wage would make life much better for "no-skilled" to "low-skilled" people needing employment; we hear it daily........"people can't survive on minimum wage". Guess what......that's only about half true, and the other half is the familiar "stinky stuff", commonly referred to, as "pure horse "puckey"; I don't remember any more what the year was when the so-called "Federal Minimum Wage" was first started, but I CAN tell you, it was years and years AFTER I graduated from high school (in 1950 ), and started supporting myself. I can also assure you that between 1950 when I graduated, and 1997 when I retired, the so-called "Federal Minimum Wage" never made 15 cents difference, one way or the other in my making a living.

Did the minimum wage make it "easier" for people just entering the labor market, "way back then"? The answer to that question is "yes and no"; (exactly like it is now, 2013, 63 years later ). If you really want to make "your life easier", by far the best way to do it is to "learn to make yourself useful"; the best way to start is by graduating from high school; hopefully, by then you should have learned to read and write, how to at least spell "hat", "cat" and "that", and you should have mastered at least, fourth grade arithmetic; also hopefully, you should have learned to "talk"; (so that adults can understand what you're talking about. ) Say you don't "like" adults? That's just fine, but tell me, how many teenagers do you know who "employ people"? You say you don't want an "ordinary job", and you'd prefer to go right to the "big money"; hey, that's just great! You can always be a "rock star", a "movie star", a "sports star", or a "TV star"; (but you'll still need to know a few things you probably haven't learned yet. )

There are a few other "careers" that quite a few people try, to "get right to the big bucks"........like "dope pusher", "car thief", or "burglar"; most of the people who choose that route are now either in jail, dead, or both; (and relatively few of them ever got rich before becoming "dead" ). But back to the minimum wage; it was yet another liberal "scheme" to jump the line and get ahead of the next guy; you can read below to see how well it has worked.


Insider Report from Newsmax.com
Headlines

1. Raising the Minimum Wage Has 'Unintended Consequences'

Raising the minimum wage would not necessarily reduce the $7 billion a year that fast-food workers receive in government benefits.

A widely reported study by university researchers, released in October, asserted that at least 52 percent of fast-food workers receive benefits from one or more government programs: Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program; Earned Income Tax Credit; Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (food stamps); and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families.

The study fueled renewed calls for a significant increase in the minimum wage, which is $7.25 an hour at the federal level.
"Because pay is low and weekly work hours are limited, the families of more than half of the workers in the fast-food industry are unable to make ends meet," according to the study by researchers at the University of California, Berkeley and the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
They described the $7 billion as "the public cost of low-wage jobs in the fast-food industry."

But other researchers dispute that, maintaining that if fast-food restaurants raised their wages, that would not guarantee a decline in government benefits, The Wall Street Journal reported.

Some restaurants might increase automation and cut jobs, leading to increased benefits for the laid-off workers. In some cases, a worker's family members could remain eligible for benefits even if wages were increased.
In other cases, workers might reduce their hours in response to a salary hike, and wage increases would boost the earned income tax credit received by some employees, according to the Journal.

"There are unintended consequences associated with raising the minimum wage," said Michael Saltsman, research director at the Employment Policies Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank.

The Journal also pointed out that the $7 billion is only about one-fifth or one-quarter as much as fast-food restaurants pay workers in wages and benefits, and it is less than 2 percent of the total benefits paid out by the four government programs.
UCLA economist Jerry Nickelsburg added that studies of the effect of minimum-wage increases are "all over the place."

The university study also disclosed that the restaurant/food services sector leads all industries in the share of workers with a family member enrolled in one or more public programs, 44 percent. Just 13 percent of fast-food workers receive health benefits from their employers.

In Louisiana, 73 percent of fast-food workers and their families receive benefits, the highest percentage in the nation. In California, 52 percent, or 227,000, get benefits.
Another analysis, by George Mason University senior scholar Antony Davies, estimates that raising the minimum wage in New Jersey by $1 an hour will increase unemployment by about 2 percent among workers without a high school education.

Gitzo again;
There are literally thousands of ways to "make money"; I know, because while I was driving a truck, I tried about half of them; some work great, some "not so great", and ALL take effort. By far the BEST way to make more money, is to find out who's making the most "bucks" doing something you can already do, (or learn to do ), then start "doing it". Example; one time when I was first married and had a couple of kids, I needed some plumbing done; when I found out what plumbers charge, I bought a couple of plumbing books and learned how to "plumb"; I never did quit my "day job" and become a plumber, but then again, I've owned dozens of houses since then, and I've never once had to pay a plumber for anything. The same thing holds true for house wiring; I actually like to do house wiring, but I never wanted to do it to make a living; but I could pay all of the electricians I've had to pay in the last 50 or 60 years with what I made in a week at my last job before I retired. ( and I still install an outlet here, a ceiling light there, and I never have to pay an electrician ! )

Or.......if you are just completely "turned off" all together by working, you can always make a living as a professional parasite, and you'll always have "the gubmint" dreaminig up more ways for you to "get free stuff"; who was it, maybe during Bill Clinton's sorry 8 years, that someone in "the gubmint" wanted to give all the welfare lay-abouts free viagra, because even "lay-abouts" "deserve" to "have fun too"; (or something equally as ridiculous as that. )
A lot of people think that raising the minimum wag... (show quote)



Reply
Dec 3, 2013 15:46:46   #
DrPhrogg Loc: NJ
 
I am quite familiar with Milton Friedman. My point is that insanity is repeating the same actions, and expecting different results. There are many other experts with various opinions. The problems is we are looking for a magic solution. We need to go back to basic economics.

Reply
 
 
Dec 3, 2013 17:08:04   #
FredB Loc: A little below the Mason-Dixon line.
 
Minimum wage laws tend to affect a very small minority of all workers, primarily "entry level" jobs of low-skill. They are 'feel-good' laws which lawmakers on both sides of the aisle use to make themselves look better. After all, who runs on a platform of "I voted AGAINST a higher minimum wage."

They primarily negatively affect small and medium sized businesses, who do not have the market presence or volume to make up for the cost of the higher wage with higher prices spread across thousands of products. So they respond they way they always have - layoffs, reduced hiring, or higher prices.

Sure, fast food workers tend to be minimum wage and just above, but McDonalds and BurgerKing have a lot more leeway to make up for the extra buck an hour - the store managers will simply lay off a couple of kids, and the corporate office can jack up the price of a burger by five cents or so, and the consumer never notices. End result: low-skilled unemployment rises, consumer prices rise, but in the end, the same amount of "wage" gets spread around to a smaller group of people.

Walmart, McDonalds, etc etc never campaign against a higher minimum wage.Why do you think that is? Because they see it as a way for their Competition (e.g. local restaurants, small markets, etc) to be hurt, not by them but by "well-meaning" lawmakers.

Despite popular depictions to the contrary, most business owners don't mind paying a FAIR wage in exchange for a FAIR value. It's the idea of being forced to pay a HIGHER wage than the value received that gets to them, as it would get to anyone.

Minimum wage laws violate every rule of good economic sense. Yes, it sounds nice to be able to say that they help 'pull workers out of poverty', but they really don't. Every rise in the M/W has been followed by a drop in the employment level of the people directly affected by it.

It makes absolutely no sense to think that the business owner is suddenly going to have a 12 to 15% increase in his cost of doing business, and not pass the cost onto consumers, in the form of higher prices, or reduce the amount of labor that he has to pay the higher wage to.

Where else would the money come from?

Next time you're in line at the McDonalds or Walmart, and you wonder why all of a sudden the damn cheeseburger is $3.50 or the WallyWorld junk isn't as cheap as it used to be, now you'll know.

Reply
Dec 3, 2013 21:43:20   #
DrPhrogg Loc: NJ
 
I am so glad your opinion is in line with National experience.(not) When minimum wage laws were first introduced, all of your arguments were presented, and none came to pass. Minimum wage that was above poverty level was what created the middle class. If we learn anything from history, it is that we learn nothing from history.

Reply
Dec 3, 2013 22:43:53   #
wlgoode Loc: Globe, AZ
 
Gitzo wrote:
A lot of people think that raising the minimum wage would make life much better for "no-skilled" to "low-skilled" people needing employment; we hear it daily........"people can't survive on minimum wage". Guess what......that's only about half true, and the other half is the familiar "stinky stuff", commonly referred to, as "pure horse "puckey"; I don't remember any more what the year was when the so-called "Federal Minimum Wage" was first started, but I CAN tell you, it was years and years AFTER I graduated from high school (in 1950 ), and started supporting myself. I can also assure you that between 1950 when I graduated, and 1997 when I retired, the so-called "Federal Minimum Wage" never made 15 cents difference, one way or the other in my making a living.

Did the minimum wage make it "easier" for people just entering the labor market, "way back then"? The answer to that question is "yes and no"; (exactly like it is now, 2013, 63 years later ). If you really want to make "your life easier", by far the best way to do it is to "learn to make yourself useful"; the best way to start is by graduating from high school; hopefully, by then you should have learned to read and write, how to at least spell "hat", "cat" and "that", and you should have mastered at least, fourth grade arithmetic; also hopefully, you should have learned to "talk"; (so that adults can understand what you're talking about. ) Say you don't "like" adults? That's just fine, but tell me, how many teenagers do you know who "employ people"? You say you don't want an "ordinary job", and you'd prefer to go right to the "big money"; hey, that's just great! You can always be a "rock star", a "movie star", a "sports star", or a "TV star"; (but you'll still need to know a few things you probably haven't learned yet. )

There are a few other "careers" that quite a few people try, to "get right to the big bucks"........like "dope pusher", "car thief", or "burglar"; most of the people who choose that route are now either in jail, dead, or both; (and relatively few of them ever got rich before becoming "dead" ). But back to the minimum wage; it was yet another liberal "scheme" to jump the line and get ahead of the next guy; you can read below to see how well it has worked.


Insider Report from Newsmax.com
Headlines

1. Raising the Minimum Wage Has 'Unintended Consequences'

Raising the minimum wage would not necessarily reduce the $7 billion a year that fast-food workers receive in government benefits.

A widely reported study by university researchers, released in October, asserted that at least 52 percent of fast-food workers receive benefits from one or more government programs: Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program; Earned Income Tax Credit; Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (food stamps); and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families.

The study fueled renewed calls for a significant increase in the minimum wage, which is $7.25 an hour at the federal level.
"Because pay is low and weekly work hours are limited, the families of more than half of the workers in the fast-food industry are unable to make ends meet," according to the study by researchers at the University of California, Berkeley and the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
They described the $7 billion as "the public cost of low-wage jobs in the fast-food industry."

But other researchers dispute that, maintaining that if fast-food restaurants raised their wages, that would not guarantee a decline in government benefits, The Wall Street Journal reported.

Some restaurants might increase automation and cut jobs, leading to increased benefits for the laid-off workers. In some cases, a worker's family members could remain eligible for benefits even if wages were increased.
In other cases, workers might reduce their hours in response to a salary hike, and wage increases would boost the earned income tax credit received by some employees, according to the Journal.

"There are unintended consequences associated with raising the minimum wage," said Michael Saltsman, research director at the Employment Policies Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank.

The Journal also pointed out that the $7 billion is only about one-fifth or one-quarter as much as fast-food restaurants pay workers in wages and benefits, and it is less than 2 percent of the total benefits paid out by the four government programs.
UCLA economist Jerry Nickelsburg added that studies of the effect of minimum-wage increases are "all over the place."

The university study also disclosed that the restaurant/food services sector leads all industries in the share of workers with a family member enrolled in one or more public programs, 44 percent. Just 13 percent of fast-food workers receive health benefits from their employers.

In Louisiana, 73 percent of fast-food workers and their families receive benefits, the highest percentage in the nation. In California, 52 percent, or 227,000, get benefits.
Another analysis, by George Mason University senior scholar Antony Davies, estimates that raising the minimum wage in New Jersey by $1 an hour will increase unemployment by about 2 percent among workers without a high school education.

Gitzo again;
There are literally thousands of ways to "make money"; I know, because while I was driving a truck, I tried about half of them; some work great, some "not so great", and ALL take effort. By far the BEST way to make more money, is to find out who's making the most "bucks" doing something you can already do, (or learn to do ), then start "doing it". Example; one time when I was first married and had a couple of kids, I needed some plumbing done; when I found out what plumbers charge, I bought a couple of plumbing books and learned how to "plumb"; I never did quit my "day job" and become a plumber, but then again, I've owned dozens of houses since then, and I've never once had to pay a plumber for anything. The same thing holds true for house wiring; I actually like to do house wiring, but I never wanted to do it to make a living; but I could pay all of the electricians I've had to pay in the last 50 or 60 years with what I made in a week at my last job before I retired. ( and I still install an outlet here, a ceiling light there, and I never have to pay an electrician ! )

Or.......if you are just completely "turned off" all together by working, you can always make a living as a professional parasite, and you'll always have "the gubmint" dreaminig up more ways for you to "get free stuff"; who was it, maybe during Bill Clinton's sorry 8 years, that someone in "the gubmint" wanted to give all the welfare lay-abouts free viagra, because even "lay-abouts" "deserve" to "have fun too"; (or something equally as ridiculous as that. )
A lot of people think that raising the minimum wag... (show quote)


Yeah, Maybe in another 35 years " Trickle Down" will take effect and let's discredit all of those PhD Noble Prize winning economists who know that capitalism only works in a "Trickle Up" economy and let a fifth grader who understands how the economy works explain it to you.

Think of this- how did Sam Walton make his billions, or Ray Krok and the large majority of the other billionaires.

Reply
Dec 3, 2013 23:26:36   #
FredB Loc: A little below the Mason-Dixon line.
 
DrPhrogg wrote:
I am so glad your opinion is in line with National experience.(not) When minimum wage laws were first introduced, all of your arguments were presented, and none came to pass. Minimum wage that was above poverty level was what created the middle class. If we learn anything from history, it is that we learn nothing from history.
Your statements are not correct. They are, however, typical of the illogical fuzzy-headed thinking of a group of people who, usually, never had to work for a minimum wage, and more importantly, never had to PAY a minimum wage to someone who may not have deserved it.

The minimum wage did not create the middle class, as MIDDLE CLASS people did not work for minimum wage.

The middle class was created by the rise of large corporations providing goods to a typical hourly worker that previously had only been available to the super-rich, and the same corporations employing millions of factory and industrial workers to construct those products. GE, Ford, Westinghouse, General Motors, US Steel, and so on are who/what created the middle class. And their proportion of employees making minimum wage was, and continues to be, miniscule.

But, I suppose, you must be correct - the minimum wage increases passed into law since 1938 have pretty much eliminated the poor, and poverty, in our society. We're all well paid middle class now, aren't we?

Tell me this - if the minimum wage eliminates poverty and the poor, why do we still have so many poor people?

Reply
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