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Metering + Manual Vs "P"
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May 6, 2013 02:45:27   #
potmead Loc: 191miles North of London, England
 
Mogul wrote:
Did you use it as an aid in VFR or did you have to depend on it for IFR? Thanks?


Connected to the autoland on his crop duster... Any field will do! :)

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May 6, 2013 03:06:07   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
potmead wrote:
Connected to the autoland on his crop duster... Any field will do! :)


Thanks. I guess when you're in that kind of a job, you just find the general area, look for the landmarks and then find the road or field with the tank truck in it. Kinda different today when you need a special permit to load from any place without a licensed storage facility. I road with one about 50 years ago in Yolo County. I have never seen a pilot so intent on killing himself. He had a reputation for flying low to avoid wind loss. If I didn't know better, I'd swear he was hitting corn tassels with his landing gear. One trip; that was enough.

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May 6, 2013 08:48:46   #
Ralloh Loc: Ohio
 
Mogul wrote:
Ralloh, a question for clarification. Considering its inherent inaccuracy (±2-4 miles), wasn't the use of Omega somewhat hazardous in the high traffic areas af Southern California? How did you cope with conflicting reports? Did you use it as an aid in VFR or did you have to depend on it for IFR? Thanks?


OMG I must be getting too old. It's been a lot of years. You're right. I was thinking VFR not VLF. I never did go for my IFR certification. I could get by in an emergency but didn't deliberately fly into clouds.

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May 6, 2013 10:09:31   #
bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana
 
winterrose wrote:
The metering system in a modern Nikon is profoundly more sophisticated than the everything averaged down to 18% gray "dumb" light meter portrayed by some.
.



If these new metering systems are so foolproof, why do we have to keep using exposure compensation when using the in camera metering system. When I use a hand held meter, I don't need exposure compensation to take a photo of snow, a backlit photo, or something with a dark background.

OK, I admit, I'm NOT a M mode snob. When I'm taking pictures for the sake of keeping memories, I will usually shoot in (A)perture mode, but when I'm taking shots that matter, like for a paying client, I use the incedent meter to be able to control ambient light. Not just in the studio, but also outside photos, churches, reception halls, etc.

The one reason people do still pay (unfortunately, not as many as used to) for a pro, is because they can't duplicate the "look" of controlled lighting.

Lastly, you have the ability to "shoot down" anyone who doesn't agree with you. Well good for you. That doesn't make you right, or make it that you have all the answers. I feel for the newbies that read stuff spewed by those that think they have the only answer. The camera meter has its place, but it is NOT the only way, it all depends on your goals. If you are going to give your opinion, that's great, but don't insult your way into thinking that makes you right, because nobody wants to talk to you. It just means people are tired of hitting their head against the wall.

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May 6, 2013 17:47:40   #
charles brown Loc: Tennesse
 
Just use the light meter smartphone app and forget everything else. Smartphones will rule the world someday. If you don't think so, just ask one. Think maybe I got side tracked?

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May 6, 2013 19:44:04   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
bkyser wrote:
If these new metering systems are so foolproof, why do we have to keep using exposure compensation when using the in camera metering system. When I use a hand held meter, I don't need exposure compensation to take a photo of snow, a backlit photo, or something with a dark background.

OK, I admit, I'm NOT a M mode snob. When I'm taking pictures for the sake of keeping memories, I will usually shoot in (A)perture mode, but when I'm taking shots that matter, like for a paying client, I use the incedent meter to be able to control ambient light. Not just in the studio, but also outside photos, churches, reception halls, etc.

The one reason people do still pay (unfortunately, not as many as used to) for a pro, is because they can't duplicate the "look" of controlled lighting.

Lastly, you have the ability to "shoot down" anyone who doesn't agree with you. Well good for you. That doesn't make you right, or make it that you have all the answers. I feel for the newbies that read stuff spewed by those that think they have the only answer. The camera meter has its place, but it is NOT the only way, it all depends on your goals. If you are going to give your opinion, that's great, but don't insult your way into thinking that makes you right, because nobody wants to talk to you. It just means people are tired of hitting their head against the wall.
If these new metering systems are so foolproof, wh... (show quote)


You are making a rather silly mistake. You have singled out one paragraph of my thread and based your criticism upon it in isolation. Please read my thread again in its entirety and you may, if you evaluate it with a somewhat more open mind, understand that I pose a reasonable question.
I do not talk down, it is merely to bring to discussion an approach to photography which would assist "newbies" or those who do not wish to or find it difficult to understand the technicalities involved with achieving "correct" exposure.
There is much more that I could say on the matter but for the sakes of Mister Ralloh and Co, in case they are doing something which requires a degree of wakefulness, I will refrain.
At least at this time.....
Cheers, Rob.

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May 6, 2013 21:03:14   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
bkyser:- "you have the ability to "shoot down" anyone who doesn't agree with you."

I wonder how valid is their argument if I can "shoot [them] down" with only a few commonly used words?
I have never "attacked" anyone out of turn.
I only treat people with disdain if they initialize such an attitude so please don't expect me to remain non-reactive if someone attempts to trivialize me.
I treat people the way they treat me.
They only get what they deserve.

Other than that I am but a shrinking violet..............

Cheers to all, Rob.

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May 7, 2013 11:06:51   #
bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana
 
winterrose wrote:
bkyser:- "you have the ability to "shoot down" anyone who doesn't agree with you."

I wonder how valid is their argument if I can "shoot [them] down" with only a few commonly used words?
I have never "attacked" anyone out of turn.
I only treat people with disdain if they initialize such an attitude so please don't expect me to remain non-reactive if someone attempts to trivialize me.
I treat people the way they treat me.
They only get what they deserve..
bkyser:- "you have the ability to "shoot... (show quote)


Really, you've attacked someone in almost every one of your posts on this thread.... Your words:

So if you have something to contribute which does not compare full on Cinematic film making to the hobbyist then feel free.
And do not underestimate my level of knowledge or understanding.

My first wife used to throw a little tantrum and walk out of the room when a bit of a discussion was at hand. It was her way to avoid justification of her point of view.

My last wife just denies sex.

As I would hope you do not think the latter would have any effect here I am disappointed that you might be of the former.......

You really ARE an idiot, Ralloh....I can't help it if you have the attention span of a peanut....Why do you even bother to waste anyone's time, (including your own, for what that is worth, apparently...) posting your dribble. But then the quality of your reply obviously reflects the quality of your intellect. I hope you don't waste the rest of your day as well. Rob.

Mogul, thinking about it, if I said "hello, how are you Ralloh" he would probably have fallen asleep before he heard me say his name!

There is much more that I could say on the matter but for the sakes of Mister Ralloh and Co, in case they are doing something which requires a degree of wakefulness, I will refrain.


Now, as far as me reading your whole post, I did. I'm more responding to your treatment of anyone who dares disagree with you.

I do go back to my point, evauative metering is OK, but it still needs compensation to be accurate. An incident meter is not fooled by the background. Is it 100% necessary to get a good exposure, no. Is it a helpful tool, and not a dinosaur? ABSOLUTELY. Do I care if you or anyone uses one? Not at all. My point is that your observations are an opinion. Meters are still relevant. BTW... I may be wrong here, but I believe cell phone meters are the same as any spot meter, so really not any more help than the one you already have. (I haven't used one, but not sure how it could be an accurate incident meter without the" ping pong ball"

Finally, it is really cool that you make a point to try to help people, but don't be a jerk about someone disagreeing with you. (or those that make jokes, some of us were blessed with a sense of humor) Go ahead, attack me now. I've said my peace.

Hope you enjoy your day

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May 9, 2013 14:25:25   #
K2KImages
 
winterrose wrote:
There is a lot of reference to the use of light meters in evaluating lighting conditions to facilitate shooting in Manual Mode.
In the olden days, once the film was loaded, for any given lighting condition there were only two adjustments available. Shutter speed and Aperture. Of those two, for any given subject there is usually one which is of priority and as camera manufacturers introduced "automatic" mode they provided the user the ability to manually set one and let the metering system set the other.
Also in the olden days, there was no way to view the result of the selected exposure settings until the entire film developing process had been completed.
The many references to light meters and manual exposure would have us believe that there is something almost magical to be gained by this methodology under all conditions.
Digital cameras provide say 12 f stops of latitude, to use a term from those film days, and our aim is to place those 12 stops nicely within the range to best capture the luminance range of reflected light from the given subject. But what if it is beyond the capability of the camera? In that case we would be forced to accept a loss of detail in either the shadows or the highlights. Or both. There is one other variable over which we have control, you might say. True, we could provide more or less light as necessary but that is not really practical under many or most normal situations.
Shooting in a studio is of course a whole different set of circumstances but I am not talking about shooting under tightly controlled lighting conditions.
The point or question that I pose is, how, in all practicality, is there any advantage in setting ISO on a meter, selecting Aperture or Shutter speed as the priority setting, reading the appropriate metered F stop or speed and shooting the scene with those settings set manually OR simply setting ISO and "A" or "S" and having the camera instantly compute and set the remaining parameter?
Or better still, just setting "P" and monitoring the result.
Mr. Rockwell was unfairly lambasted for referring to "P" as "professional mode".
I agree with him if it was his little dig, which, to his amusement, so many bit, at all those people who think they can do better, or rather, be seen to be doing better and being a better photographer by not needing to rely on such amateurish stuff as anything automatic.
In truth, "P" is referred to as Program Auto which takes into account, and I can only speak of Nikon here, a whole lot more than some may have us believe.
The metering system in a modern Nikon is profoundly more sophisticated than the everything averaged down to 18% gray "dumb" light meter portrayed by some.
There are a great number of controls and combinations of controls available, and there are many which most people will never use.
The Nikon D3 was designed for professional use and it incorporated only those features required by a professional in order to get the "money shot". I refer, of course, to the type of subject affording little time and no second chance to get the shot. "Mr President, would you mind falling over again, I need a meter reading..." There are no bells or whistles. It is ready long before you are and it will always get the shot if used correctly. It is very rare indeed that setting "P" and releasing the shutter fails.
I am in no way saying that using external light metering and making careful accommodation of all things considered etc. etc. has no place but I fail to see the advantage in real terms of making photography more complex an activity than is necessary, especially if shooting manually is dressed up as being some sort of elite club to be revered by we lesser beings who happen to have a lean towards the practical use of technology.
Light meters and shooting manually does not magically expand the performance of your camera. All it can ever do is allow the photographer to stand up and take "credit" for some of the numbers on his photo's exif data.
As I said, shooting in a studio and all the control over lighting that affords is a different thing altogether but I am not referring to that.
Over to you….Rob.
There is a lot of reference to the use of light me... (show quote)


Wow, lots of excellent posts. I will be short and express thoughts of one or so questions. Shooting in manual you have total control. Shooting in "P" has its advantages for quickness. Most cameras do a fair job at exposure. Shooting in "A", or "S" gives you control over your that selected mode, you want control over your aperture or shutter speed also this will affect the DOF which is critical. If you left in "P" mode you might not get the DOF that you want and get all or most of photo detail in focus. This is why you shoot in manual or one of the other modes is to have control over exposure and DOF. Letting the camera decide the other settings than what you are currently in is just a little faster and you don't need to set all parameters. I rarely use "P" mode, most are in "A" or "P" and Manual, plus EV. Hope this helps.

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Sep 23, 2013 08:10:37   #
Wabbit Loc: Arizona Desert
 
winterrose wrote:
My first wife used to throw a little tantrum and walk out of the room when a bit of a discussion was at hand. It was her way to avoid justification of her point of view.

My last wife just denies sex.

As I would hope you do not think the latter would have any effect here I am disappointed that you might be of the former.......

Regards, Rob.


Hey Doc ..... we sympathize with ya first wife, and we surely sympathize wit ya last wife ..... my question is, what happened to the three in between? ha,ha,ha,ha,

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Sep 23, 2013 17:31:29   #
jenny Loc: in hiding:)
 
Wabbit,my dear and much appreciated Wabbit,i had hoped you and winterrose had sorted things out and,as he mentioned at the end of that 14 p (?) thread which I had to unwatch,everone else was moving on.It's a long long time from May to.....September.
You are both valuable members of UH.contributing in your own ways. But this is a bit much Wabbit,you are a more intelligent wabbit than to carry things this far. Please,would you knock it off now? Peace. Okay? Huh?

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Sep 23, 2013 19:23:24   #
Wabbit Loc: Arizona Desert
 
jenny wrote:
Wabbit,my dear and much appreciated Wabbit,i had hoped you and winterrose had sorted things out and,as he mentioned at the end of that 14 p (?) thread which I had to unwatch,everone else was moving on.It's a long long time from May to.....September.
You are both valuable members of UH.contributing in your own ways. But this is a bit much Wabbit,you are a more intelligent wabbit than to carry things this far. Please,would you knock it off now? Peace. Okay? Huh?


Hum .... I'll do it for you Doc but I have reservations .....

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Sep 23, 2013 19:42:56   #
jenny Loc: in hiding:)
 
Well my love,thank you so very much, really appreciate your willingness to make peace. I think perhaps winterrose did not understand a wabbit's sense of humor so he hurt more than he should. It must be so hard living in a place where one can't see Polaris and not know which way is up.
I think he was ready to come around to understand you by last week maybe though. I'm asking him to walk in your moccasins ...you do have moccasins sometimes for thorny patches don't you?

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