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Will Digital Images Survive a Century?
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Mar 28, 2013 01:58:55   #
Lazy Old Coot Loc: Gainesville, Florida
 
JudyTee23 wrote:
I am now very glad that I started this thread. Initially, I was reluctant to do so for fear of igniting an unpleasant conflagration between opposing camps. I fully expected a vigorous, even absurd, defense of the digital media. Thankfully such has not occurred.

I owe a debt of gratitude to all who have taken the time and made the effort to contribute to a rational discussion of the problems inherent in preserving some visual evidence of our time for the education and enjoyment of future generations.

Many posters have recommended preserving standard silver-based prints. Silver-based prints are among the less desirable preservation methods. Nevertheless, gold chloride toning will remove most of the undesirable characteristics of silver. The gold will tend to coat the silver grains and protect against by humidity, oxygen, UV rays, etc.

Platinum or palladium prints are excellent, both in longevity as well as visually. Older, alternative printing methods, such as carbon, bromoil, etc, are more physical than chemical and thus are more stable in the long run.

If each of us preserves only a tiny part of our photographic output, we will, collectively, leave a valuable record for the future.

Thanks to all who have posted. I hope the discussion continues.
I am now very glad that I started this thread. Ini... (show quote)


Judy, Although I didn't realize it until just now I have spent the last sixty years solving the problem you have presented. I have, over those years, taken thousands of photographs and I can assure you that no one would have any great regrets if they all, every one of them, "faded away like the morning mist". No one that is but me, and since I'm now eighty years old, if they will last just another ten years that will more that likely satisfy my needs.

On a more serious note. As has already been pointed out this is becoming a serious concern for those creating, not just photos, but any sort of digital content. I am confident there are far more folks than we ever imagined working on a solution as we speak. Whoever does solve the problem will be likely to make a great deal of money, so we can be pretty sure the problem will be solved, one way or another. That's just the way our system works.
......... Coot

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Mar 28, 2013 02:46:37   #
PhotoTex Loc: Texas
 
JudyTee23 wrote:
I recently had the pleasure of examining a small private collection of old photographic prints, some of which dated back to our Civil War, 150 years ago.

One group of prints particularly interested me. They were 16x20 inch contact prints from 16x20 glass plates. The prints were dated about 1910. They were over a century old, and most were cityscapes photographed from high elevations. The detail in those old prints was absolutely astounding.

Judy - I also don't trust hard drives, CDs, or thumb drives.
Out of each shoot, I choose the best ones and have them printed.
PhotoTex

The question comes to mind, will our digital images of today be so readily available a century hence? If so, in what form?

Thirty years ago, images were stored on 5½ inch floppy disks. Can anyone read such a disk with today's hardware? Then came the smaller 3½ disks. They are becoming rare and while I still can read them today, what happens when the present equipment wears out?

Then came CD's. But CD's I burned five years ago are unreadable today. The local IT guys tell me the laser tracings have deteriorated. Is the same fate awaiting DVD's?

Many recommend archiving via external hard drives. Will the microscopic magnetic tracings on the disks survive for a century? And, if so, will there be hardware and software available to render the images useful?

Today, I can look at some old photos and see my grandparents as children. Will future generations be able to do the same? Or will our digital images of today disappear like the morning mists?

I am concerned about the obvious ephemeral qualities of digital imagery. I am old-fashioned. I am reducing all of my most treasured digital images to paper prints. For the moment, that is the best solution for me.

I am sure our UHH Forum experts have other opinions and maybe better solutions.

I would like to read some comments.
I recently had the pleasure of examining a small p... (show quote)

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Mar 28, 2013 05:52:46   #
Theo_cupent42
 
for a school project I did a few years back, I got an early apple computer running. It wasn't a difficult task, as I'm familiar with computers from the 70's and 80's. what I found bizarre is that the floppy disks, which had been put in a filing cabinet and left untouched for 25 years, had a 50-50 hit/miss rate of working.

perhaps it's a little of an unrelated story, but I think it goes to show that digital has the chance of surviving if we use it right. However, given the practises we currently undergo with digital, it's not looking very promising. I have a couple of times had to rescue images I've accidentally deleted.

what I think is a shame is that we don't think nearly as much of digital "negatives" today as we do film ones. Too many of us are happy to throw away the originals and only keep the edited image. It saddens me - we're thinking we're recording history, but we're going to lose those recordings.

just my 2¢

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Mar 28, 2013 11:10:47   #
billwassmann Loc: Emerson, NJ
 
A lot of stuff is stored in and by pinheads now!

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Mar 28, 2013 12:20:49   #
bunuweld Loc: Arizona
 
The situation can be improved in the future through international agreements. The metric system is now the official measuring system worldwide except for US, Liberia and Myanmar, but American medical laboratories do use metric-system weight and volume units for their reports. The same thing can be achieved with image format and digitized storage of images, which would ensure image storage and availability for the unlimited future.

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Mar 28, 2013 13:34:04   #
Bobgood1 Loc: Indianapolis, IN
 
So what is the answer to safe long term storage of photos. I have a garage full of the old storage methods. Some of them went to the Goodwill.

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Mar 28, 2013 13:42:40   #
wlgoode Loc: Globe, AZ
 
bunuweld wrote:
The situation can be improved in the future through international agreements. The metric system is now the official measuring system worldwide except for US, Liberia and Myanmar, but American medical laboratories do use metric-system weight and volume units for their reports. The same thing can be achieved with image format and digitized storage of images, which would ensure image storage and availability for the unlimited future.


You've piqued one o' my bugaboos! I'm sick and tired of fellow American disparaging the adoption of the metric system by saying "Im used to the one we've got." Ask them three questions. 1. Which system do we use? They won't know it's the English Standard System. 2. How many ounces are in a gallon. They won't know it's 128. 3. What is a dram? They'll be clueless. Even after they learn they don't know the bulk of the system we use, they'll stick to their guns not realizing that if they only knew they could multiply by 10 they could learn the metric system cold in a week but after 50 yrs they won't really know the ESS.

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Mar 28, 2013 13:51:11   #
billwassmann Loc: Emerson, NJ
 
Because I became interested in photography I had to learn something about the metric system but I still do not see any advantages. ALL measurement systems are arbitrary so why is it better to have meters than miles? What is better about a meter than a yard?

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Mar 28, 2013 13:59:35   #
wlgoode Loc: Globe, AZ
 
billwassmann wrote:
Because I became interested in photography I had to learn something about the metric system but I still do not see any advantages. ALL measurement systems are arbitrary so why is it better to have meters than miles? What is better about a meter than a yard?

Read my post. I gave the answer to two, can you answer the other one without looking it up? I'll bet not, but if we used the metric system you would intuitively know what a milligram is.
My point is simple. People using the archaic ESS do NOT know their own system. Unless you carry a reference book in your pocket, you can't find out all the different crazy terms and numbers. With the metric system, which is not at all arbitrary, it is based on scientific standards and all you have to do is know how to multiply by 10.

Almost the entire world adopted to it but the US is so obstinately provincial and stubborn they refuse to see the clear advantage of it.

Kind of explains our Congress.

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Mar 28, 2013 14:07:14   #
Eveline
 
hj wrote:
Does anyone think building "photo-books" is a good alternative to printing and placing in an album? The closed book protects the photos from any light source. Posted the same question way earlier in the thread without response.


I would say no. Look at the books we have on our library shelves. By the time they are 30 years old, they have faded. They might have a better chance if they were printed on archival paper. Not sure as only time will tell.

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Mar 28, 2013 14:11:26   #
Eveline
 
It also occurs to me that with the sheer volume of images that are taken today, surely some of them will survive? We just might not have control over which ones. Something to think about.

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Mar 28, 2013 15:24:23   #
bunuweld Loc: Arizona
 
billwassmann wrote:
Because I became interested in photography I had to learn something about the metric system but I still do not see any advantages. ALL measurement systems are arbitrary so why is it better to have meters than miles? What is better about a meter than a yard?


Yes most *old* measurement systems are arbitrary. But that does not include the metric system.
A US liquid gallon is different from a US dry gallon, and one Imperial (English) liquid gallon is 1.2 Us liquid gallons; and a land mile is different than a nautical mile, and so on.
In the metric system, one kilometer (or kilometre) is 1000 meters, and one meter is 100 centimeters. So, how many centimeters in one kilometer? Anyone can respond to that in one second. Now, how many inches in one mile? To respond that there are 63,360 inches in one mile you would need a calculator or a minute or two to calculate it by yourself. This assuming that we know which kind of mile we are talking about.

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Mar 28, 2013 15:46:05   #
Ront53 Loc: Maryland
 
CaptainC wrote:
Boy this strikes nerve with me. The ONLY medium we can be reasonably sure will survive is paper prints. B&W is particularly suited for longevity.

Computers are shipping without CD/DVD drives already. Of course we can buy externals, but the trend is everything from the "cloud."

I see entire family histories being lost due to the stupid and I do mean STUPID idea that digital files are the way to go. Facebook is not your family album and yes, we are learning that CD's burned just few years ago are corrupted.

Did I mention that thinking digital storage will keep images for the future is STUPID. :-)
Boy this strikes nerve with me. The ONLY medium we... (show quote)


The only medium that has survived the ages is stone carvings and it takes an expert to read them. I transfered all my VHS tapes to DVD so they will be viable for at least a few years. CDs are suppose to last 30 years under certain conditions. I guess that means a proper enviroment of temperature and humidity.

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Mar 28, 2013 16:37:38   #
billwassmann Loc: Emerson, NJ
 
Books fade because they are printed on cheap paper. With the proper paper they will outlast all the readers of this site, including the youngest ones. I spent 20 years in book publishing (1956-1976). Some of those books are still in superb condition but as cost went up some companies cut corners.

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Mar 29, 2013 04:51:40   #
Dartmoor Walker Loc: Dartmoor, Devon. England.
 
When you think that in photography's infancy in the mid 1800's, the world and it people were being documented using this medium and our ancestors were learning about our world via prints and those prints and the negatives still survive today, I don't think the same thing will be said about digital imaging in 100+ years from now.
Its seems to be a fact that of all the billions or trillions etc of digital images taken using the many different types of digital cameras, such as phone cameras, point & shoots etc, will never be seen by anyone but the author, of which a large percentage will almost certainly be lost within the first few years of being shot and probably 90%+ will be lost over the next 100 years or so, there will be little in the way of photographic documentation of life as it really is today, which is a great shame, because, although very few snapshots that are taken at parties etc, and those quirky shots taken by all the youngsters on mobile phones will never be prize winning images, they play a very important part (in my view) in documenting the way we live today, how life is today and how life has changed since the beginning of photography, a great, great shame really!!!

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