I would just chime in, welcome back to the days of film. In those vaulted days, photographers reveled in technique, developing real skills for which all things digital short of the D800 was a big let down (except for the better high ISO performance film lacked.)
As to lenses falling apart at their known worst apertures? That is to be expected. Want performance at high f/stops? Get a view camera, which roundly beats the D800 in resolution with great high f/stop performance.
All due respect I understand the point you are making. Even though I do not own a D800E, but I do own several Nikon dslr and several medium and 35mm format cameras.
I totally comprehend the D800E hand-held sensitivity issues and you have totally made your point across that you are a serious and a professional photographer and whatever you are photographing is beyond us ugly hedgehogers comprehension.
The only advice I have for you is: Its not the point that you made got everyone steamed off, its the tone of your voice, even though you message was in writing still everyone can taste the rudeness.
Its not what you said its how you said it. got the best of everyone.
So if you call yourself a pro, then you must show it, because at times actions do speak louder than words.
Thank you and have a great day.
Mthphoto
sinatraman wrote:
can we please not personally insult each other? I believe the op was stating for OPTIMUM performance a tripod is necessary to get the best out of the camera. That is not necessarily wrong. However, I also agree with MT that you can get excellent results without a tripod. Also how sharp you want your photos is a personal choice. I feel that this demand that a photo be sharp down to the subatomic particles is a sign of OCD, but that's me personally. If your photo can be used to cut diamonds then its too sharp!
We can agree to disagree without throwing out words like arrogant or pompous which have no place here unless we are talking about obama.
can we please not personally insult each other? I... (
show quote)
HAHAHAHA "down to the subatomic particles" sorry but that cracked me up. Try shooting a real beautiful but older famous actress and use the words "sharp" and see what happens
:shock: :shock: :shock:
mthphoto wrote:
All due respect I understand the point you are making. Even though I do not own a D800E, but I do own several Nikon dslr and several medium and 35mm format cameras.
I totally comprehend the D800E hand-held sensitivity issues and you have totally made your point across that you are a serious and a professional photographer and whatever you are photographing is beyond us ugly hedgehogers comprehension.
The only advice I have for you is: Its not the point that you made got everyone steamed off, its the tone of your voice, even though you message was in writing still everyone can taste the rudeness.
Its not what you said its how you said it. got the best of everyone.
So if you call yourself a pro, then you must show it, because at times actions do speak louder than words.
Thank you and have a great day.
Mthphoto
All due respect I understand the point you are mak... (
show quote)
I only wanted to share some things with people that own this camera. If thats so bad then the earth will turn backwards tomorrow. All I did was state facts.
PipesCJ7
Loc: Cordova, Alaska/Shoreline, WA/ Merritt, BC
PhotoArtsLA wrote:
I would just chime in, welcome back to the days of film. In those vaulted days, photographers reveled in technique, developing real skills for which all things digital short of the D800 was a big let down (except for the better high ISO performance film lacked.)
As to lenses falling apart at their known worst apertures? That is to be expected. Want performance at high f/stops? Get a view camera, which roundly beats the D800 in resolution with great high f/stop performance.
As a professional, I tested the D800 and was a bit let down as far as its overall performance. It's a nice camera but it's also not a D3 or D4 for performance and durability in the field. CJ7
zneb240
Loc: New South Wales - Australia
BigD wrote:
Try shooting a real beautiful but older famous actress and use the words "sharp" and see what happens :shock: :shock: :shock:
Who needs it!! I was recently commissioned to do a portrait series for a very gentle, very beautiful,
mature aged neighbour whilst she affectionately cradled her little dog. I dusted off the ole 'pod and cable, figured out mirror-up, bolted on my best quality lens, blah...blah...blah... in fact deployed the whole arsenal of equipment and knowledge gained over 50 years of photographing things. Achieved sharpness that even surprised me (modest blush).
Well .....you can guess how this finished up. :evil: I thought she was going to stuff the dog down my throat when she saw what I thought where perfectly rendered character wrinkles and stuff.
Sharpness...shmarkness. Give me soft anyday for portraits of females over 17 years of age!! That's why I stick to gentle things like lions and leopards!!
thehing
Loc: Mississauga Ontario Canada
silver wrote:
hangman45 wrote:
silver wrote:
silver wrote:
I finally had the time to do a real test with a D800E and this is what I found. The camera is an absolute beast. The resolution capability and definition is outstanding. The camera performs to my every expectation with several caveats. This camera demands the absolute best shooting technique. This is not a casual play toy, this is a very serious camera. Hand holding this camera does not do it justice. The sensor is so sensitive that if the camera is not absolutely still there is a very good chance that your images will not be as sharp as the camera is capable of creating. I know that there are people here that will react to these statements and take me to task about their hand holding capabilities but it is a fact of shooting with this camera that hand holding with this camera will not give optimal results. In order to get the results that I expected this camera was capable of I had to mount the camera on a sturdy tripod, use the live view setting because that gives me a mirror up setting and I actually had to use a cable release. Pressing the shutter button with your finger will probably be ok but I wanted to do everything as required. One very important thing that I found is the sensor is so sensitive that the slightest mistake shows up and the result is an unsharp image. The most important thing that I discovered is that the F setting for the lens is extremely important. I did some tests and there is a considerable loss of sharpness when you use an F stop beyond F 8. The camera is so sensitive that diffraction sets in at F11 and gets really bad at F16. There is a considerable amount of sharpness loss even at F 11. I was using a D700 before I bought this camera and I never had these extreme problems because the camera was not capable of recording the subtle changes caused by diffraction the way the D800E can. I did considerable testing and the results were the same every time. So here is a sample taken with the camera mounted on a Gitzo tripod with a heavy Cambo CB5 ball head, live view setting and a cable release and the F setting of F8. I dont take pictures of birds and dogs and horses. I am a very serious photographer and this camera is definitely a serious camera.
I finally had the time to do a real test with a D8... (
show quote)
As I expected the response to my post is attacking me without even trying to understand or comprehend what I am talking about. The recognized "experts " here are so set in there ways that they cant understand my meaning. Everything I said is true in regards to the capability of the camera. Sure you can hand hold this camera and get good results, BUT, the results that you will achieve will not be what this camera is capable of. If you go on the Nikon site, which I am sure all of you have done, you will see the images that Nikon has to show what the camera can do. One of the images is of an interior of a building and in the description they say that the "technique that you use with this camera is important in order to achieve the utmost quality". Have any of you ever taken the time to blow up one of your hand held images to see exactly how sharp they really are? I am sure that your egos dont allow you to admit that your images are not quite as sharp as you think that they are. I am only making a comment about the capability of these cameras and in order to achieve the absolute highest quality you really have to use the best technique. In my post I said that "hand holding this camera will not do it justice". Whats wrong with that statement? You so called experts have this need to attack without questioning and its really sad. There is nothing in my post that is not true and I just dont understand why you "experts" are so insulted by my saying so. I am not as perfect as you all are, I, at least strive to find out what the capability of my equipment really is beyond cooing over my images and defending how I use it. I would put one of my images shot on a tripod with mirror up and cable release against any hand held image that you could shoot of the same subject. One last thing . Have any of you ever, and I mean ever done a test to see exactly where diffraction comes into play. I really dont think so. If you want, I can do a test and show you the results of diffraction beyond F8 with the D800E. Have you ever put your camera on a tripod and shot something using mirror up and a cable release and tried the different F stops past F8? I really dont think so. One of the problems with the D800E is that the camera is so capable that it shows these problems and if you would take the time to do some testing instead of cooing over your wonderful images you would see that what I am saying is true. Just to show you where I am coming from, I will over the next week or so do a test for you because I really dont think that any of your egos would allow you to honestly do this so I will do it for you.
quote=silver I finally had the time to do a real ... (
show quote)
And again you come off as a pompous ass claiming you are the expert and no one else can do what you do or has done what you have done. I am glad that you are happy using a tripod for everything but it is not practical or the best way to take all photos. A extremely sharp photo of a uninteresting subject is still a uninteresting photo. A lot of times there are acceptable losses the minute loss due to diffraction is sometimes acceptable to get the depth of field that the photographer wants not what you want but what the photographer wants. Yes your statements are true you will always get a better photo if you use a tripod and mirror up but is not practical at all times and is not the preferred method of most. The problem with your post is how you always have to put some stupid remark in them like that you are a serious photographer and the ones that shoot birds and other things that you don't are not serious you are so full of yourself that you do not realize there are many photographers on here that IMHO do a much better job than you do and they do not try to come off like they are the King of Photography.
The best technique to take one type photo is not always the best technique to take all photos tripod and mirror up might be fine for landscape but not for shooting moving objects.
quote=silver quote=silver I finally had the time... (
show quote)
Once again your vitriolic response shows me that you completely do not understand my post. You really have a problem. All I said was that the D800e camera performs at its optimum under certain conditions, thats all. If you are so stupid to think that I have another meaning you really are blind. Of course it is not possible to use cameras under really tight conditions all the time, what kind of idiotic statement is that. Your ego is showing and it is pathetic. I also mentioned that there is a drop in sharpness when you go beyond F8 and that is a true statement so what is your problem with this statement. All I am doing is stating true facts and you in all of your glory are accusing me of being superior and a bad photographer. How silly and juvenile. As I said I expected that there would people like you responding to me and I am not disappointed that way. Maybe you should look in the mirror and see what a pompous ass really is. By the way, anybody can do what I do, its not difficult. All you need is an inquisitive mind and a desire to find out certain facts. To prove my point I will soon post some images to show how much of a loss of sharpness there is due to diffraction but Im sure that it will make no difference to you even tho the proof will be right in front of your eyes. One last thing. There is a saying, sticks and stones will hurt my bones etc,etc etc. This is a child's rhyme and that seems to be your level. By the way the correct way to say this is -An extremely sharp photo of an uninteresting subject is still an uninteresting photo. Learn correct English please.
quote=hangman45 quote=silver quote=silver I fin... (
show quote)
Is this a long lost Monty Python script???
thehing wrote:
silver wrote:
hangman45 wrote:
silver wrote:
silver wrote:
I finally had the time to do a real test with a D800E and this is what I found. The camera is an absolute beast. The resolution capability and definition is outstanding. The camera performs to my every expectation with several caveats. This camera demands the absolute best shooting technique. This is not a casual play toy, this is a very serious camera. Hand holding this camera does not do it justice. The sensor is so sensitive that if the camera is not absolutely still there is a very good chance that your images will not be as sharp as the camera is capable of creating. I know that there are people here that will react to these statements and take me to task about their hand holding capabilities but it is a fact of shooting with this camera that hand holding with this camera will not give optimal results. In order to get the results that I expected this camera was capable of I had to mount the camera on a sturdy tripod, use the live view setting because that gives me a mirror up setting and I actually had to use a cable release. Pressing the shutter button with your finger will probably be ok but I wanted to do everything as required. One very important thing that I found is the sensor is so sensitive that the slightest mistake shows up and the result is an unsharp image. The most important thing that I discovered is that the F setting for the lens is extremely important. I did some tests and there is a considerable loss of sharpness when you use an F stop beyond F 8. The camera is so sensitive that diffraction sets in at F11 and gets really bad at F16. There is a considerable amount of sharpness loss even at F 11. I was using a D700 before I bought this camera and I never had these extreme problems because the camera was not capable of recording the subtle changes caused by diffraction the way the D800E can. I did considerable testing and the results were the same every time. So here is a sample taken with the camera mounted on a Gitzo tripod with a heavy Cambo CB5 ball head, live view setting and a cable release and the F setting of F8. I dont take pictures of birds and dogs and horses. I am a very serious photographer and this camera is definitely a serious camera.
I finally had the time to do a real test with a D8... (
show quote)
As I expected the response to my post is attacking me without even trying to understand or comprehend what I am talking about. The recognized "experts " here are so set in there ways that they cant understand my meaning. Everything I said is true in regards to the capability of the camera. Sure you can hand hold this camera and get good results, BUT, the results that you will achieve will not be what this camera is capable of. If you go on the Nikon site, which I am sure all of you have done, you will see the images that Nikon has to show what the camera can do. One of the images is of an interior of a building and in the description they say that the "technique that you use with this camera is important in order to achieve the utmost quality". Have any of you ever taken the time to blow up one of your hand held images to see exactly how sharp they really are? I am sure that your egos dont allow you to admit that your images are not quite as sharp as you think that they are. I am only making a comment about the capability of these cameras and in order to achieve the absolute highest quality you really have to use the best technique. In my post I said that "hand holding this camera will not do it justice". Whats wrong with that statement? You so called experts have this need to attack without questioning and its really sad. There is nothing in my post that is not true and I just dont understand why you "experts" are so insulted by my saying so. I am not as perfect as you all are, I, at least strive to find out what the capability of my equipment really is beyond cooing over my images and defending how I use it. I would put one of my images shot on a tripod with mirror up and cable release against any hand held image that you could shoot of the same subject. One last thing . Have any of you ever, and I mean ever done a test to see exactly where diffraction comes into play. I really dont think so. If you want, I can do a test and show you the results of diffraction beyond F8 with the D800E. Have you ever put your camera on a tripod and shot something using mirror up and a cable release and tried the different F stops past F8? I really dont think so. One of the problems with the D800E is that the camera is so capable that it shows these problems and if you would take the time to do some testing instead of cooing over your wonderful images you would see that what I am saying is true. Just to show you where I am coming from, I will over the next week or so do a test for you because I really dont think that any of your egos would allow you to honestly do this so I will do it for you.
quote=silver I finally had the time to do a real ... (
show quote)
And again you come off as a pompous ass claiming you are the expert and no one else can do what you do or has done what you have done. I am glad that you are happy using a tripod for everything but it is not practical or the best way to take all photos. A extremely sharp photo of a uninteresting subject is still a uninteresting photo. A lot of times there are acceptable losses the minute loss due to diffraction is sometimes acceptable to get the depth of field that the photographer wants not what you want but what the photographer wants. Yes your statements are true you will always get a better photo if you use a tripod and mirror up but is not practical at all times and is not the preferred method of most. The problem with your post is how you always have to put some stupid remark in them like that you are a serious photographer and the ones that shoot birds and other things that you don't are not serious you are so full of yourself that you do not realize there are many photographers on here that IMHO do a much better job than you do and they do not try to come off like they are the King of Photography.
The best technique to take one type photo is not always the best technique to take all photos tripod and mirror up might be fine for landscape but not for shooting moving objects.
quote=silver quote=silver I finally had the time... (
show quote)
Once again your vitriolic response shows me that you completely do not understand my post. You really have a problem. All I said was that the D800e camera performs at its optimum under certain conditions, thats all. If you are so stupid to think that I have another meaning you really are blind. Of course it is not possible to use cameras under really tight conditions all the time, what kind of idiotic statement is that. Your ego is showing and it is pathetic. I also mentioned that there is a drop in sharpness when you go beyond F8 and that is a true statement so what is your problem with this statement. All I am doing is stating true facts and you in all of your glory are accusing me of being superior and a bad photographer. How silly and juvenile. As I said I expected that there would people like you responding to me and I am not disappointed that way. Maybe you should look in the mirror and see what a pompous ass really is. By the way, anybody can do what I do, its not difficult. All you need is an inquisitive mind and a desire to find out certain facts. To prove my point I will soon post some images to show how much of a loss of sharpness there is due to diffraction but Im sure that it will make no difference to you even tho the proof will be right in front of your eyes. One last thing. There is a saying, sticks and stones will hurt my bones etc,etc etc. This is a child's rhyme and that seems to be your level. By the way the correct way to say this is -An extremely sharp photo of an uninteresting subject is still an uninteresting photo. Learn correct English please.
quote=hangman45 quote=silver quote=silver I fin... (
show quote)
Is this a long lost Monty Python script???
quote=silver quote=hangman45 quote=silver quot... (
show quote)
I am absolutely amazed at the response to a simple post about the capability of a camera. I never said anything regarding needing to shoot at a particular F stop all the time, All I said was in order to achieve the maximum capability of the camera etc. I never said that hand holding was a bad thing, I only said that hand holding will not give the absolute best results. I did some tests and I wanted to tell about the tests that showed what the camera is capable of. I couldnt care less what technique is used when making pictures, it is very subjective and it doesnt mean anything. Yet, some people here take things personally and think that I am attacking them and there work which is the farthest thing from the truth. The D800E camera and the D800 camera are capable of incredible images, thats all. If thats so bad then birds fly backwards.
That pretty well sums up what Nikon stated when the camera was released. The guys on the forums at DPR tend to agree for the most part too. Thing is though, even if you hand hold or shoot at small f-stops, the picures will not be any worse than the D700, just won't show what the D800 is truly capable of. Thanks for the report..... looking forward to seeing some quality D800 shots!
zneb240 wrote:
BigD wrote:
Try shooting a real beautiful but older famous actress and use the words "sharp" and see what happens :shock: :shock: :shock:
Who needs it!! I was recently commissioned to do a portrait series for a very gentle, very beautiful,
mature aged neighbour whilst she affectionately cradled her little dog. I dusted off the ole 'pod and cable, figured out mirror-up, bolted on my best quality lens, blah...blah...blah... in fact deployed the whole arsenal of equipment and knowledge gained over 50 years of photographing things. Achieved sharpness that even surprised me (modest blush).
Well .....you can guess how this finished up. :evil: I thought she was going to stuff the dog down my throat when she saw what I thought where perfectly rendered character wrinkles and stuff.
Sharpness...shmarkness. Give me soft anyday for portraits of females over 17 years of age!! That's why I stick to gentle things like lions and leopards!!
quote=BigD Try shooting a real beautiful but olde... (
show quote)
There ya go, hell they have software to create softness in portraits haha.
zneb240
Loc: New South Wales - Australia
BigD wrote:
There ya go, hell they have software to create softness in portraits haha.
Roger that BigD :thumbup:
Ernie Misner wrote:
That pretty well sums up what Nikon stated when the camera was released. The guys on the forums at DPR tend to agree for the most part too. Thing is though, even if you hand hold or shoot at small f-stops, the picures will not be any worse than the D700, just won't show what the D800 is truly capable of. Thanks for the report..... looking forward to seeing some quality D800 shots!
I will post images soon that show how diffraction sets in and has a serious effect on the quality of the final image.
If you need extra DOF (depth of field in focusing) the diffraction is a price we sometimes have to pay though. Selective sharpening of key subject areas will help in getting that sharpness back. This is where tilt shift lenses really shine. You can get the DOF without stopping down so much.
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