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Reply to Oliver North on Gun Control
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Jan 16, 2013 13:01:46   #
RoysJungle Loc: Ohio
 
There's a problem with your thinking. Back then it was musket balls and swords fighting musket balls and swords, and everybody had access to the same types of weapons. Now, welcome to day where we have modern day assault rifles. There is a big discrepancy between an assault rifle and a musket. You do know, criminals don't listen to laws now so why should they be able to get machine guns and semi-automatic guns as well as high capacity ammo clips while legal gun owners can't get them legally. Also, part of the Second Amendment goes back to the Deceleration of Independence in us being able to defend ourselves if needed against the tyrannical government. Which, if you go read the Deceleration of Independence you will see that within the last 50 years are government has done a lot of the problems we had against the King of England. In addition, due to advances of medical treatment you are now far less likely to die from a gunshot wound then you were from a musket ball or bayonet. How about instead of passing new laws enforce the existing ones, or even hand every man, woman, and child capable of holding it, a fully loaded gun and see how there would less gun crime especially after the morons trying to hold people up were eliminated from the gene pool. Go read the articles on gun violence and other violent crimes in areas where guns are illegal to own on Google and others such as in Sweden where everyone has a gun.

Before, you get to talking and ridiculing me no I am not pro-gun or anti-gun. I think its a personal choice and really I think the government should read the Constitution and follow it and keep out of our personal lives.

Pentony wrote:
What is the necessitate of civilians owning machine guns and semi-automatic guns? What is the necessitate of civilians owning high capacity ammo clips? Those items are designed to outright kill masses of human beings quickly as in war.

Those items are designed for use by military personnel and maybe some civilian police SWAT teams. A real hunter would not use them for hunting game.

As for the Second Amendment, recall that it was written when weapons were mostly single shot muskets and swords. The funding fathers could not foresee the types of weapons we have today but they were smart enough to make the Constitution flexible to fit the needs of future generations by including a provision for adding Amendments to the Constitution.

If those types of weapons and clips were banned, one could still "bear arms" by purchasing hand guns which are still superior to muskets. One could argue that banning them would mean that like during Prohibition (illegal alcohol), the bad guys would still illegally obtained banned items and the good guys would be out gunned. That's why there are heavily armed civilian police SWAT teams and the National Guard.

The point is that banning those high powered rapid firing high capacity clips human killing machines would not infringe on the Second Amendment because as previously stated, one could still "bear arms" by purchasing hand guns.

Banning them is not the "all solution" to the problems of killing civilians in our society. Could it be one step as a part of the solutions? There are several other "steps" which are needed to be addressed regarding civilian killings.

The only reason to kill a civilian in our society is in self defense. A hand gun would do that very effectively.
What is the necessitate of civilians owning machin... (show quote)

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 13:13:40   #
bvm Loc: Glendale, Arizona
 
The second amendment was put in the Constitution to protect and insure the rights in the first amendment.

It was put there to keep OUR government in check.

It was to warn the OUR government that an armed citizenry would not accept a despot or government take-over by some constitution destroying individual.

I find it very ironic that some people now want to pick and choose what amendment they like or dislike or choose to ignore.

From 1784 to 2008, 224+ years, the Constitution has served us well but all of a sudden there's a desire on the part some people to throw out what doesn't suite their liking.

If we dispose of the second amendment, do we then do away with the first amendment????????

Ask China, Russia, Cuba, Germany, Iraq, Iran, North Korea et al.

Remember when the people fear the government, all hope is lost.

When the Government fears the people, liberty prevails!

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 13:19:12   #
UP-2-IT Loc: RED STICK, LA
 
Pentony wrote:
What is the necessitate of civilians owning machine guns and semi-automatic guns? What is the necessitate of civilians owning high capacity ammo clips? Those items are designed to outright kill masses of human beings quickly as in war.

Those items are designed for use by military personnel and maybe some civilian police SWAT teams. A real hunter would not use them for hunting game.

As for the Second Amendment, recall that it was written when weapons were mostly single shot muskets and swords. The funding fathers could not foresee the types of weapons we have today but they were smart enough to make the Constitution flexible to fit the needs of future generations by including a provision for adding Amendments to the Constitution.

If those types of weapons and clips were banned, one could still "bear arms" by purchasing hand guns which are still superior to muskets. One could argue that banning them would mean that like during Prohibition (illegal alcohol), the bad guys would still illegally obtained banned items and the good guys would be out gunned. That's why there are heavily armed civilian police SWAT teams and the National Guard.

The point is that banning those high powered rapid firing high capacity clips human killing machines would not infringe on the Second Amendment because as previously stated, one could still "bear arms" by purchasing hand guns.

Banning them is not the "all solution" to the problems of killing civilians in our society. Could it be one step as a part of the solutions? There are several other "steps" which are needed to be addressed regarding civilian killings.

The only reason to kill a civilian in our society is in self defense. A hand gun would do that very effectively.
What is the necessitate of civilians owning machin... (show quote)


Well put !

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2013 13:21:20   #
wilpharm Loc: Oklahoma
 
Robbie7 wrote:
wilpharm wrote:
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue has nothing to do with NEED....it is about rights...who cares what is "needed" to kill a deer....do you want Obama to tell you what you can or cannot take hunting...DO you NEED a car that goes 130 or 40 pound line to catch a bass...dammit its about rights...if you dont want a 223 Assault weapon then dont buy one...I dont have one but I damn well have the right to purchase one if I want & why cant you understand that these are not "machine guns" geez..do you really want to have to get a background check for the buyer if you sell your neighbor or friend a gun...or give one to your son???? Get Friggin Real!!!!!! & to you BRITS..MIND your own damn business...you have enough problems worrying about who good old Charlie or Harry is boffing nowadys...
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue... (show quote)


I think in the recent school shooting there was a british child killed, and two young unarmed british men who were on holiday in your beautiful country were also gunned down for no reason last year, these two men lived quite near to me, I think, maybe wrongly that this makes it our business also..???. I worked with a british man who said he hated the Yanks, when I asked him why he couldn't tell me..maybe you fall into this category..
quote=wilpharm why dont you gun haters understand... (show quote)


Maybe Robbie, I dont fall into that category..I dont HATE England but what goes on there is non of my business & Vice Versa. But if you are scared of gun violence in USA...JUST STAY HOME...& worship your royalty...

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 13:28:20   #
yhtomit Loc: Port Land. Oregon
 
TimS wrote:
You do realize that someone can carry several 10 rd magazines on their person and have the same firepower as a single 30 rd magazine? It just takes another second or so to change the magazine.

Restricting the bullet capacity to curb gun violence makes as much sense as restricting gas tank capacity to curb drunk driving.


Well put!

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 13:31:36   #
yhtomit Loc: Port Land. Oregon
 
Gnslngr wrote:
TimS wrote:
You do realize that someone can carry several 10 rd magazines on their person and have the same firepower as a single 30 rd magazine? It just takes another second or so to change the magazine.


Great. So you wouldn't mind if they were banned, right? After all, you can get the same effect by changing out your magazine in a "second or so". :thumbup:


No,he was pointing out how stupid the proposed ban will be.
Wake up!

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 13:32:49   #
yhtomit Loc: Port Land. Oregon
 
SusanLauer wrote:
Oliver North- North was at the center of national attention during the Iran–Contra affair, a political scandal of the late 1980s. North was a National Security Council staff member involved in the clandestine sale of weapons to Iran, which served to encourage the release of U.S. hostages from Lebanon. North formulated the second part of the plan: diverting proceeds from the arms sales to support the Contra rebel groups in Nicaragua (funding to the Contras had been prohibited under the Boland Amendment amidst widespread public opposition in the U.S. and controversies surrounding human rights abuses by the Contras). He is currently the host of War Stories with Oliver North on Fox News Channel.
Are we supposed to listen to the philosophy of anyone with his history? SL
Oliver North- North was at the center of national ... (show quote)


You could say the same thing about Obama and Holder,what's your point?

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2013 13:37:05   #
yhtomit Loc: Port Land. Oregon
 
Robbie7 wrote:
TimS wrote:
Robbie7 wrote:
wilpharm wrote:
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue has nothing to do with NEED....it is about rights...who cares what is "needed" to kill a deer....do you want Obama to tell you what you can or cannot take hunting...DO you NEED a car that goes 130 or 40 pound line to catch a bass...dammit its about rights...if you dont want a 223 Assault weapon then dont buy one...I dont have one but I damn well have the right to purchase one if I want & why cant you understand that these are not "machine guns" geez..do you really want to have to get a background check for the buyer if you sell your neighbor or friend a gun...or give one to your son???? Get Friggin Real!!!!!! & to you BRITS..MIND your own damn business...you have enough problems worrying about who good old Charlie or Harry is boffing nowadys...
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue... (show quote)


I think in the recent school shooting there was a british child killed, and two young unarmed british men who were on holiday in your beautiful country were also gunned down for no reason last year, these two men lived quite near to me, I think maybe wrongly that this makes it our business also..???
quote=wilpharm why dont you gun haters understand... (show quote)


No more so than if a US citizen dies from some sickness in your country that it makes it my business how your healthcare system operates.
quote=Robbie7 quote=wilpharm why dont you gun ha... (show quote)


I have noticed a tendency in this forum, and that is to use misappropriate examples of an unrelated subject in an effort to justify the original OP. What on earth! has someone falling sick over here and our healthcare system got to do with guns? Next you will be talking about abortion..
quote=TimS quote=Robbie7 quote=wilpharm why don... (show quote)


Hey,when does the life cycle of a human begin?

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 13:48:14   #
ted45 Loc: Delaware
 
Robbie7 wrote:
wilpharm wrote:
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue has nothing to do with NEED....it is about rights...who cares what is "needed" to kill a deer....do you want Obama to tell you what you can or cannot take hunting...DO you NEED a car that goes 130 or 40 pound line to catch a bass...dammit its about rights...if you dont want a 223 Assault weapon then dont buy one...I dont have one but I damn well have the right to purchase one if I want & why cant you understand that these are not "machine guns" geez..do you really want to have to get a background check for the buyer if you sell your neighbor or friend a gun...or give one to your son???? Get Friggin Real!!!!!! & to you BRITS..MIND your own damn business...you have enough problems worrying about who good old Charlie or Harry is boffing nowadys...
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue... (show quote)


I think in the recent school shooting there was a british child killed, and two young unarmed british men who were on holiday in your beautiful country were also gunned down for no reason last year, these two men lived quite near to me, I think, maybe wrongly that this makes it our business also..???. I worked with a british man who said he hated the Yanks, when I asked him why he couldn't tell me..maybe you fall into this category..
quote=wilpharm why dont you gun haters understand... (show quote)


I think it is odd that you are the only one that seems to know about a British child being killed in the recent school shooting. Even the Telegraph.co/UK, while listing the names and ages of every victim, doesn't seem to be aware of that. Perhaps you could enlighten us with some specifics.

Americans are killed in foreign countries, including England, all the time. That doesn't give us any voice in how you should live your lives.

There are some people on here that have told you Brits to butt out, but that isn't everyone nor should you be painting everyone with your accusations.

If you don't feel safe traveling in our country then don't come.

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 14:00:04   #
Robert Graybeal Loc: Myrtle Beach
 
Anthony Charles wrote:
Robert Graybeal wrote:
the constitution was written when the civilians and the government had muskets. equal arms.

times change

we still have a right and a duty to defend against tyrany

wake up and grow a brain that works!


Why are you so RUDE to everyone who disagrees with you????


I'm sorry!

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 14:56:10   #
Anthony Charles Loc: Santa Maria
 
Robert Graybeal wrote:
Anthony Charles wrote:
Robert Graybeal wrote:
the constitution was written when the civilians and the government had muskets. equal arms.

times change

we still have a right and a duty to defend against tyrany

wake up and grow a brain that works!


Why are you so RUDE to everyone who disagrees with you????


I'm sorry!


Accepted thanks

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2013 15:32:38   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
Pentony wrote:
What is the necessitate of civilians owning machine guns and semi-automatic guns? What is the necessitate of civilians owning high capacity ammo clips? Those items are designed to outright kill masses of human beings quickly as in war.

Those items are designed for use by military personnel and maybe some civilian police SWAT teams. A real hunter would not use them for hunting game.

As for the Second Amendment, recall that it was written when weapons were mostly single shot muskets and swords. The funding fathers could not foresee the types of weapons we have today but they were smart enough to make the Constitution flexible to fit the needs of future generations by including a provision for adding Amendments to the Constitution.

If those types of weapons and clips were banned, one could still "bear arms" by purchasing hand guns which are still superior to muskets. One could argue that banning them would mean that like during Prohibition (illegal alcohol), the bad guys would still illegally obtained banned items and the good guys would be out gunned. That's why there are heavily armed civilian police SWAT teams and the National Guard.

The point is that banning those high powered rapid firing high capacity clips human killing machines would not infringe on the Second Amendment because as previously stated, one could still "bear arms" by purchasing hand guns.

Banning them is not the "all solution" to the problems of killing civilians in our society. Could it be one step as a part of the solutions? There are several other "steps" which are needed to be addressed regarding civilian killings.

The only reason to kill a civilian in our society is in self defense. A hand gun would do that very effectively.
What is the necessitate of civilians owning machin... (show quote)


First, you need to learn what you are talking about. In one breath, you decry semi automatic guns as suitable only for military and law enforcement. Then you say that handguns would suit people just fine yet many handguns are semi automatic. Semi auto means every time you pull the trigger the gun fires. Are you saying we should only be allowed to have revolvers????

Now as far as self defense, look at police involved shootings. Police are much more highly trained than I ever will be yet they still miss their target even at as close as 10 feet. There was a shooting I read about where cops surrounded a car, the suspect pulled a gun, and the cops opened fire. They fired over 100 rounds into the car but hit the guy only a couple times.

A long rifle is a MUCH more effective self defense weapon than a handgun. You can steady a rifle so much easier than a handgun. A shotgun is such a superior home defense weapon than a handgun. I can't carry a shotgun concealed though so I can't really take it with me if I wanted to run out to the store or whatever and I wanted to be armed. I believe a revolver is superior to a semi auto for home defense because it won't jam but you can only have 5-6 bullets and its more difficult to reload a revolver (speed loaders help). Also, its harder for a guy to conceal carry a revolver than a semi auto.

At the end of the day, I want enough bullets to ensure I kill the bad guy(s). I may want a long rifle for that or I may want a handgun depending in the circumstances. An 'assault rifle' is a highly effective home defense weapon. If a group of people broke into my house (say gang members), I'd much rather have an AR15 with a large capacity magazine.

I don't live in an area where I feel that a group of gang members breaking in my house is likely so I have chosen not to spend >$1000 on an AR15. But I'd like to have the opportunity to buy one should I ever WANT one.

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 16:02:24   #
Robbie7 Loc: Northampton. England
 
TimS wrote:
Robbie7 wrote:
TimS wrote:
Robbie7 wrote:
wilpharm wrote:
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue has nothing to do with NEED....it is about rights...who cares what is "needed" to kill a deer....do you want Obama to tell you what you can or cannot take hunting...DO you NEED a car that goes 130 or 40 pound line to catch a bass...dammit its about rights...if you dont want a 223 Assault weapon then dont buy one...I dont have one but I damn well have the right to purchase one if I want & why cant you understand that these are not "machine guns" geez..do you really want to have to get a background check for the buyer if you sell your neighbor or friend a gun...or give one to your son???? Get Friggin Real!!!!!! & to you BRITS..MIND your own damn business...you have enough problems worrying about who good old Charlie or Harry is boffing nowadys...
why dont you gun haters understand that this issue... (show quote)


I think in the recent school shooting there was a british child killed, and two young unarmed british men who were on holiday in your beautiful country were also gunned down for no reason last year, these two men lived quite near to me, I think maybe wrongly that this makes it our business also..???
quote=wilpharm why dont you gun haters understand... (show quote)


No more so than if a US citizen dies from some sickness in your country that it makes it my business how your healthcare system operates.
quote=Robbie7 quote=wilpharm why dont you gun ha... (show quote)


I have noticed a tendency in this forum, and that is to use misappropriate examples of an unrelated subject in an effort to justify the original OP. What on earth! has someone falling sick over here and our healthcare system got to do with guns? Next you will be talking about abortion..
quote=TimS quote=Robbie7 quote=wilpharm why don... (show quote)


Its an analogy. Perhaps you have heard of it. Allow me to use simpler language. If an American citizen gets sick in your country and dies, I have no more right to tell you how to run your healthcare system than you have to tell us what our gun laws need to be just because some Brit was a victim of gun violence.

You said that because a Brit was subjected to gun violence then that somehow gives you the right to tell us what our gun laws should be. Again, using parallel logic, I can bitch and complain about your healthcare USING PARALLEL LOGIC.

It's that simple. Parallel logic, dude.
quote=Robbie7 quote=TimS quote=Robbie7 quote=w... (show quote)


I think you should re-read exactly what I said and try again..regards

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 16:42:08   #
Bultaco Loc: Aiken, SC
 
According to our politicians an assault weapon must look like a military M16, have a collapsible stock, pistol grip, flash suppressor large capacity magazines and fire simi auto. There are many firearms which hold over ten rounds on the market and fire simi auto. The old M1 carbine fires both auto and simi auto and will take a 30 round magazine, the ones sold in the states are simi auto. I have a 22 rifle that holds 17 rounds, anyone proficient can hit 17 targets in less than a minute. Why is a look alike military rifle more deadly than sporting rifle with the same firepower. I don't know if our politicians are so ignorant or trying to impress the puiblic.

Reply
Jan 16, 2013 16:45:58   #
markg
 
True as a hunter if you can't down your deer etc. they win Remember the NRA is funded by the gun and amunition industries. They have a vested interest so the NRA's mouth piece has to protect his salary and their interests

Reply
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