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Circular vs square grid polarizers.
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Apr 29, 2024 13:36:45   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
dbrugger25 wrote:
I posted the original question and appreciate the responses.


After reading the majority of the posts i have become convinced that the majority of posters don't know what a Crown Graphic camera is.

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Apr 29, 2024 13:51:16   #
dbrugger25 Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
The problem with linear polarizers on cameras is not whether they are film or digital cameras. The problem arises from the fact that light reflected from a dielectric surface can be partially polarized (without using a polarizing filter). In fact early polarizers were just stacks of glass at angles that polarized the light.

Since light can be polarized on reflection, and since autofocus systems on cameras depended on light that was bounced around from mirrors and through various prisms to the autofocus sensor, the use of polarized light meant that the light that reached the autofocus system could be polarized in a different direction from unpolarized light that entered the camera. That could potentially cause errors in the autofocus system.

Using circularly polarized light mitigates this problem because circularly polarized light does not change polarization direction on reflection. That means that it acts like unpolarized light when it comes to the autofocus system. But since the outer half of a circular polarizer is a linear polarizer, it affects the light entering the camera just as a linear polarizer would. The second half of the circular polarizer is a quarter wave plate, which produces a quarter wave delay in one of the polarization components coming through the filter. This means the electric vector of the light wave is not constrained to one direction (as a linearly polarized wave would be) but has two components with a 90 degree phase difference, so the electric vector travels in a circular fashion. Hence the term 'circular polarization'. https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/user-page?upnum=3002

Autofocus systems were developed for film cameras late in the film era and digital cameras took them as a standard feature.

I suspect the effect on autofocus systems is small so that a linear polarizer will work on a modern camera. There is the possibility of focus errors, which I have not evaluated. I took a quick look a couple decades ago and didn't see any effect but it was not a real definitive study.

Note that a circularly polarizing filter will act as a linearly polarizing filter if it is reversed. The quarter wave plate will do nothing important to the light, leaving the linear polarizing component of the filter to do all the work.

Your Crown Graphic will work with either a circular or a linear polarizer (my old Speed Graphic did not have autofocus). Linear polarizers may be cheaper, but since circular polarizers are THE thing to use these days, linear polarizers may be in shorter supply (and therefore higher prices) than the circular polarizers.

PS: 'Disturbing patterns' probably refers to Moiré patterns, which arise from patterns in an image interfering with the square rectangular grid of sensors in a digital camera. They have nothing at all to do with polarizers. It is purely a geometric effect. It is not a problem with film because the film grain is arranged in a random pattern.
The problem with linear polarizers on cameras is n... (show quote)


I really appreciate your intelligent response. It is the first good one I have read. Unlike some others, you just imparted knowledge without stooping to insult in or demeaning the question. Thank you

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Apr 29, 2024 14:20:07   #
User ID
 
Longshadow wrote:
Some may, some (most?) don't.......
So to cover all bases, they simply say don't.

Is that Haiku ?

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Apr 29, 2024 14:22:13   #
User ID
 
clint f. wrote:
After reading the majority of the posts i have become convinced that the majority of posters don't know what a Crown Graphic camera is.

"After reading ....." ?!?
Better late than never !

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Apr 29, 2024 16:24:32   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
User ID wrote:
Is that Haiku ?



No rhyme intended.

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Apr 29, 2024 18:48:44   #
User ID
 
Longshadow wrote:


No rhyme intended.

17 sylables, semi-rhyming. Good show !

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Apr 29, 2024 18:52:49   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
User ID wrote:
17 sylables, semi-rhyming. Good show !


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Apr 29, 2024 20:06:56   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
clint f. wrote:
After reading the majority of the posts i have become convinced that the majority of posters don't know what a Crown Graphic camera is.


If I am right, it is a "potato masher" similar to what Weegee used. A 4X5 camera with a rather large flash attached. I do not believe it had an internal metering system. And I am not sure how easy it was to attach a filter to it. If I am correct, one would only need a linear polarizer but a circular polarizer could also be used. And I do not know if one could be modified for internal metering and what such would be and look like. Therefore the answer to the question has to cover "all bases".

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Apr 29, 2024 21:05:29   #
dbrugger25 Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
If you watch movies made during the 1950's and earlier, the Crown Graphic and Speed Graphic are the big bulky "press Cameras" that you see. Most reporters of that era used them in the 4" X 5" format. The majority had a f:4.7 or f:4.5 lenses. They took very high quality photos but the photographer had to get in close for news, sports and human interest photos because there were no zoom lenses for the Graphic cameras. They are fantastic for landscape photos.

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Apr 29, 2024 23:32:12   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
dbrugger25 wrote:
If you watch movies made during the 1950's and earlier, the Crown Graphic and Speed Graphic are the big bulky "press Cameras" that you see. Most reporters of that era used them in the 4" X 5" format. The majority had a f:4.7 or f:4.5 lenses. They took very high quality photos but the photographer had to get in close for news, sports and human interest photos because there were no zoom lenses for the Graphic cameras. They are fantastic for landscape photos.


I know of no one that has anything but high praise for the older 4X5 press cameras. They produced a lot of images for the newspapers back in their day. Big and fairly heavy, but the images were large. And the images were easily cropped if the images were a little small without losing image quality.

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Apr 30, 2024 09:31:12   #
dbrugger25 Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
wdross wrote:
If I am right, it is a "potato masher" similar to what Weegee used. A 4X5 camera with a rather large flash attached. I do not believe it had an internal metering system. And I am not sure how easy it was to attach a filter to it. If I am correct, one would only need a linear polarizer but a circular polarizer could also be used. And I do not know if one could be modified for internal metering and what such would be and look like. Therefore the answer to the question has to cover "all bases".
If I am right, it is a "potato masher" s... (show quote)


Press photographers most frequently used powerful bulb flashes for indoor and night shots. In studios, hot incandescent lighting was used. In the late 1950s, Graphex Corp. introduced a flash head that would mount on their bulb flash handles. It was powered by a heavy lead-acid battery pack that was carried on the photographer's shoulder. Then Honeywell developed the Strobinar flash that mounted like the bulb flashes and had internal batteries. It produces good light but the cycle time between flashes was long.

Taking photos was slow because the film was housed it carriers that contained two sheets of film in a plastic or wood frame with a lightproof feature. You had to insert the film carrier under a spring-loaded back that held it tightly against the back of the camera. Then you had to pull the cover out to make the film available for exposure. After taking the photo, you slid the cover back in place, removed the carrier, flipped it over and repeated the process to expose the other sheet of film on the opposite side.

As you can imagine, the photographer had to lug a number of those two sided carriers around along with the big camera, flash bulbs and "D" size batteries. Being a photographer was a lot of work.

Even though they don't look that way, the Graphic cameras were rugged. A lot of war correspondents used them. When not in use, they could be collapsed and closed-up to make them easier to carry.

If you google "Speed Grapgic Cameras" or "Crown Graphic Cameras" you will find pictures, descriptions and You Tube presentations about them. They were part of a great era of photography history.

They now sell on the used market for far more than they cost new in their era.

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Apr 30, 2024 10:05:44   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
dbrugger25 wrote:
...Taking photos was slow because the film was housed it carriers that contained two sheets of film in a plastic or wood frame with a lightproof feature. You had to insert the film carrier under a spring-loaded back that held it tightly against the back of the camera. Then you had to pull the cover out to make the film available for exposure. After taking the photo, you slid the cover back in place, removed the carrier, flipped it over and repeated the process to expose the other sheet of film on the opposite side.

As you can imagine, the photographer had to lug a number of those two sided carriers around along with the big camera, flash bulbs and "D" size batteries. Being a photographer was a lot of work...
...Taking photos was slow because the film was hou... (show quote)


As I recall, in the late '50s there was a 10 or 12-pack of film that could be used in place of the 2-film carrier. It required another style of carrier, but it fit right in where the old style was used. You would place a pack into the new carrier and pull out the cover, then pull out a paper tab which uncovered a sheet of film. When that one was exposed you pulled out the next paper tab which moved a new sheet into place. The last tab would put another cover sheet over the film and you could take the pack out and insert a new one. If you didn't use all the film in the pack you could put the normal cover back and take the pack out and use it up later.

I shot a couple weddings for impecunious friends in the '60s. I probably only got about 30 shots from each wedding. Strictly amateur stuff at the time but both marriages lasted more than 50 years. The amateur photos did not affect the viability of the union.

dbrugger25 wrote:
...They now sell on the used market for far more than they cost new in their era.


That's true of a lot of antique things. I probably bought 10 used tractors over my farm career. Every one cost me more than the original owner paid for the new tractor. Inflation. The cost of a tractor is the maintenance, not the capital. You could probably make a similar statement for almost every antique thingy you use on a regular basis. A friend had a number of antique cars that he drove regularly. He had to maintain a machine shop to do maintenance (making your own replacement parts, including bearings and brake pads).

On the other hand, I had a John Deere model B tractor. They were made from about 1935 until 1952. In the '90s I could still get parts for them. 10 years is old for a car. 50 years is middle age for a tractor.

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Apr 30, 2024 15:51:43   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
That's true of a lot of antique things. I probably bought 10 used tractors over my farm career. Every one cost me more than the original owner paid for the new tractor. Inflation. The cost of a tractor is the maintenance, not the capital. You could probably make a similar statement for almost every antique thingy you use on a regular basis. A friend had a number of antique cars that he drove regularly. He had to maintain a machine shop to do maintenance (making your own replacement parts, including bearings and brake pads).

On the other hand, I had a John Deere model B tractor. They were made from about 1935 until 1952. In the '90s I could still get parts for them. 10 years is old for a car. 50 years is middle age for a tractor.
That's true of a lot of antique things. I probably... (show quote)


The back you describe is in a FilmPack that Kodak prepared for 4x5 cameras. There are roll film backs for 120 (2 1/4”) and also a Polaroid back in addition to the film holder for 2 shots as well as a Polaroid back. One of the significant prints I have displayed was taken on a Crown Graphic by Bernice Abbott. It is of the Flatiron building in NYC. She wrote an excellent article in “The Graflex Camera” The shot is an illustration in one of the editions of the book.

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May 1, 2024 07:50:18   #
BebuLamar
 
User ID wrote:
LPL vs CPL has no effect whatsoever on image recording. It affects only certain conveniences on certain semi-obsolete cameras. Metering can be less convenient but still functional. AF may be useless. Nothing else is ever affected. The CPL is headed for obsolescense along with the cameras that "needed" it.


But then some film cameras have the same AF and metering as a digital for example the Nikon F6 and D2 basically have the same AF and metering system.

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