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Time for Photographers to be Scared? (Editorial)
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Apr 27, 2024 15:41:48   #
terryMc Loc: Arizona's White Mountains
 
JD750 wrote:
people will always take pictures of family and friends, and at weddings and events. For some of us Photographs store memories.

Advertising and marketing, making movies, is about making money and photography costs money. If AI technology is able to provide the same product at a lower cost you can expect AI will displace photography and become common in those areas.


There can be no argument that commercial advertising will use the cheapest, fastest method to achieve its goal, even if that means eliminating people (real people) entirely.

I have my doubts about movies, though, since using AI animation for an entire documentary, dramatic, or comedic movie without any real people might not sell too well. Even the Marvel Universe still requires some real people to blend into the explosions and come out the other side. There is already very little reason to have actual people in this type of movie, but I can't see humans being completely replaced any time soon.

I think there will still be a place for wedding, portrait, and senior photography, documenting news, sending images from space, broadcasting and recording important events, speeches and what have you, personal memorabilia and many other uses that will always require a device to record an actual event.

If you are in certain lines of work, you may have to worry about your job in the future, but cameras in general are going to be around for a long, long time. You'll still want that picture of you at the Grand Canyon.

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Apr 27, 2024 15:50:29   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
Artcameraman wrote:
It's time,
”It's Time For us to do What We Have Been Doing. And that Time is Every Day!”
- Kamala Harris

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Apr 27, 2024 16:04:02   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
terryMc wrote:

I have my doubts about movies, though, since using AI animation for an entire documentary, dramatic, or comedic movie without any real people might not sell too well.
I think we are in violent agreement! lol.

Regarding movies, a big issue in the most recent strike was how production companies and producers use AI to recreate images of actors/actresses and recreate their voices. It’s reality now not in the future.

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Apr 27, 2024 21:01:34   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
terryMc wrote:
Yes, people do photograms every day, therefore Images created by computers from text prompts are the same.


Not at all. Not even close. And I would conjecture that calling a phonogram a photograph is a pretty loose interpretation. But at least photograms are created through an actual photographic process.

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Apr 27, 2024 21:15:33   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
Not at all. Not even close. And I would conjecture that calling a phonogram a photograph is a pretty loose interpretation. But at least photograms are created through an actual photographic process.


Back in the darkroom days, making photograms was more common and every time someone tried to define a photograph as the product of a camera someone would bring up photograms.

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Apr 27, 2024 21:31:36   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
Back in the darkroom days, making photograms was more common and every time someone tried to define a photograph as the product of a camera someone would bring up photograms.


Bringing it up doesn’t make them right.
https://resources.depaul.edu/art-museum/exhibitions/Pages/this-is-not-a-photograph.aspx

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Apr 27, 2024 21:52:41   #
srt101fan
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
Back in the darkroom days, making photograms was more common and every time someone tried to define a photograph as the product of a camera someone would bring up photograms.


This topic is about how UHH should handle images partially or fully created by AI. In the context of that discussion it suffices to say that a photograph is an image created by a camera.

(How many photograms have been posted on UHH?)

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Apr 27, 2024 21:52:47   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:


I'm not sure that they are the ultimate authority on the question. More like a clever title for their show. Isn't a "photographic image" a photograph? They don't give their definition of photograph which excludes photograms. I would favor a definition inclusive enough to include them.

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Apr 27, 2024 22:25:09   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
I'm not sure that they are the ultimate authority on the question. More like a clever title for their show. Isn't a "photographic image" a photograph? They don't give their definition of photograph which excludes photograms. I would favor a definition inclusive enough to include them.


It has a name. That name is not photograph. It’s called a photogram because it’s not a photograph.

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Apr 27, 2024 23:00:41   #
Horseart Loc: Alabama
 
R.G. wrote:
The only time that will get complicated is if we try to be too idealistic about it. Going down that road would involve us excluding anything that didn't fit into a universally agreed upon idealised notion of what a real photograph is. We should be looking to do as little excluding as possible. Put another way, we should be leaning towards being as accommodating as possible, without going so far that the concept of photography becomes meaningless.

It's probably easier and simpler if we start by defining what a photograph is not, which in this case would specifically be images generated from scratch by AI software or computer graphics software. That would mean using the medium of origin as one of the defining factors (but not the only one). In the spirit of keeping things simple, where photographs are concerned we could define the medium of origin as "photographic equipment", which, from a photographer's point of view means cameras, including cameras built into non-camera devices such as phones.

The definition of "photograph" could then realistically include composites (which may or may not include AI generated elements). Photography has a long history of including composites of various types.

Just because a photo has been given some post processing, that needn't mean that we have to stop referring to it as a photo. All photos (digital and analog) have to be given some kind of processing, whether it's in camera or in a computer or a dark room, so the idea that any post processing is a no-no is not realistic.

We would still have to allow for the possibility of photographs being extensively modified. It should be up to the individual to decide whether they felt the need
for disclosure in such matters. The alternative would be to exclude extensively modified photos and then we are left with the problem of where to draw the line.
Those who felt the need for disclosure could refer to such images as "modified photos" which would cover all possibilities.

If someone had the intention of producing a creatively edited image from a photo, the chances are they wouldn't want to refer to it as a photo anyway, so getting precious about such definitions would seem to be futile and trivial.

What's the definition of a photograph? To answer that there are two possibilities - we can be idealistic or we can be realistic. Perhaps to be clear we should specify that we're looking for a working definition. In that context, being realistic would seem to be the better choice. That involves being flexible and accommodating and making sensible assessments. Some people aren't very good at any of those things and they prefer the rigid exclusiveness of idealism. The down side is that being rigid and exclusive is the option that's least likely to produce a working, real world definition.

The possibility of deception will be with us no matter what definitions we choose. For those who feel the need for disclosure there's no problem because there's nothing stopping them. For those who have the intention to deceive, they don't care what the agreed definitions are.
The only time that will get complicated is if we t... (show quote)



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Apr 28, 2024 06:23:11   #
Artcameraman Loc: Springfield NH
 
terryMc wrote:
There can be no argument that commercial advertising will use the cheapest, fastest method to achieve its goal, even if that means eliminating people (real people) entirely.

I have my doubts about movies, though, since using AI animation for an entire documentary, dramatic, or comedic movie without any real people might not sell too well. Even the Marvel Universe still requires some real people to blend into the explosions and come out the other side. There is already very little reason to have actual people in this type of movie, but I can't see humans being completely replaced any time soon.

I think there will still be a place for wedding, portrait, and senior photography, documenting news, sending images from space, broadcasting and recording important events, speeches and what have you, personal memorabilia and many other uses that will always require a device to record an actual event.

If you are in certain lines of work, you may have to worry about your job in the future, but cameras in general are going to be around for a long, long time. You'll still want that picture of you at the Grand Canyon.
There can be no argument that commercial advertisi... (show quote)


I just saw an F-14 Tomcat in a photo of Custer's last Stand but the Sue had a Tripple A Battery and drove it off.

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Apr 28, 2024 08:47:33   #
yssirk123 Loc: New Jersey
 
AI is a replacement technology that will have far reaching consequences for the camera industry and photographers.

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Apr 28, 2024 10:18:56   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Do we as individuals want to take our own photos or do we want instead to generate images by feeding instructions into an AI image generator? AI is not going to provide a substitute for hunting down photo ops, getting busy with our own cameras and making our own images. However, commercial photography is probably going to be another matter.

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Apr 28, 2024 11:27:47   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
Curmudgeon wrote:
As we know Adobe has been integrating more and more AI features into Photoshop generative fill and has upgraded Firefly, its AI generating program, to Version 3. In the latest release of Photoshop beta it is now possible to generate a multiple layer composite image using only verbal commands. Generative Fill and Generative Expand, both AI functions, allow us to add AI images to photographs easily and Generative Expand allows us to expand the borders of a photograph with the push of a button.

Topaz Labs Gigapixel AI, DeNoise AI, Sharpen AI and Photo AI use Artificial Intelligence to correct our photographic mistakes. These have become accepted Post Processing steps and are no longer mentioned in photo descriptions yet are truly AI modified images by definition.

Ugly Hedgehog has guidelines on how and where AI and AI/photograph hybrid images may be posted. I believe it is time to revisit these guidelines. With few exceptions most of us use AI to one degree or another in Post Processing. I believe it is time to allow AI generated images to be posted in any Forum as long they are identified as such.
As we know Adobe has been integrating more and mor... (show quote)

Totally agree.

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Apr 28, 2024 12:14:28   #
charles brown Loc: Tennesse
 
Curmudgeon wrote:
As we know Adobe has been integrating more and more AI features into Photoshop generative fill and has upgraded Firefly, its AI generating program, to Version 3. In the latest release of Photoshop beta it is now possible to generate a multiple layer composite image using only verbal commands. Generative Fill and Generative Expand, both AI functions, allow us to add AI images to photographs easily and Generative Expand allows us to expand the borders of a photograph with the push of a button.

Topaz Labs Gigapixel AI, DeNoise AI, Sharpen AI and Photo AI use Artificial Intelligence to correct our photographic mistakes. These have become accepted Post Processing steps and are no longer mentioned in photo descriptions yet are truly AI modified images by definition.

Ugly Hedgehog has guidelines on how and where AI and AI/photograph hybrid images may be posted. I believe it is time to revisit these guidelines. With few exceptions most of us use AI to one degree or another in Post Processing. I believe it is time to allow AI generated images to be posted in any Forum as long they are identified as such.
As we know Adobe has been integrating more and mor... (show quote)


I agree and have wondered if a rating system such as that used for movies could be developed. Another idea is to develop software that looks at an image and identifies how much AI was used before being posted. Maybe also identifies what AI was used for. Just thoughts.

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