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Bridge Collapse
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Mar 30, 2024 23:38:23   #
dwmoar Loc: Oregon, Willamette Valley
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
It doesn’t mean we won’t go after the shipping company, although I doubt we’ll get the full amount to cover it. But it’s not the kind of thing that we can wait for litigation to be resolved. Any big delay would end up being more costly.


+1

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Mar 30, 2024 23:53:00   #
dwmoar Loc: Oregon, Willamette Valley
 
dbrugger25 wrote:

The clearing of the wreckage should begin immediately but it won't. It will probably take months to clear at least one shipping channel. Again, remember that the people in charge don't care about the interrupted commerce.


Wow, Your post didn't age well.... Jumping to conclusions is a specialty I see.

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Mar 31, 2024 00:08:08   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
BebuLamar wrote:
4 unaccounted for. 8 workers total. 2 found quickly. 6 was missing and 2 bodies were found days later.


Yikes! I left off a couple of words and one letter, then typed 2 instead of 4: 6 workers missing, besides the two pulled out alive fairly quickly, the[n][/b] two found dead in their pickup truck after trying to get away when they got dumped in the water as the bridge went down and 2 4 still unaccounted for.

Do you think I should wake up completely after a nap before typing?
And fix the sticky keys from a coffee with cream spill. Sometimes they don't go all the way down=no letter, sometimes they stick in the down position so the next time I hit it nothing happens.
Maybe I should not drink coffee at the computer. Nah! Then I would do a face plant when I fell asleep and "type" a big mess of gobbledygook.

Thanks for a polite catch. Some on here would be...

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Mar 31, 2024 00:58:31   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
dwmoar wrote:
Sorry it is not a suspension bridge in any means or form. The Francis Scott Key Bridge, was a truss style bridge. Trusses are usually triangular structures that interlock and support the bridge. They were among the most common types of long-distance bridges built in America for much of the mid-20th century before going out of vogue in the 1980's.


You’re right. Reading about it I went down the rabbit hole and watched a video about the Silver Bridge disaster in Ohio and got the bridges conflated. But a truss bridge is just as bad when it has a span that long. One tower goes and the main span is coming down and the violence of that will affect the other spans.

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Mar 31, 2024 18:07:03   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
dustie wrote:
Oh, well.......
.......could you try weaving all four lines together in a nice four-strand braid, so, maybe it wouldn't increase the troubles?........much


If they were weaved together they’d be one. I’ve set an anchor and beached and tied down to keep from ending up parallel to the shore.

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Mar 31, 2024 23:57:55   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
TriX wrote:
Well we have the audio track from the bridge, the course, position, speed, probably rudder angle and that the anchor (at least on the port side) was deployed. We know there was a power failure, but it seems to me, the big question is what caused the electrical failure.

If I understand correctly, large cargo vessels have electro-hydraulic steering where electrical controls regulate hydraulic pressure on the rudder. From my understanding, there are one or two main diesel engines that drive the props and several diesel generators (typically 3) that provide electricity as well as a backup electric generator. What puzzles me is how all these electrical generators or associated switchgear failed, causing the crew to lose control of the rudder and the main engines so that could neither steer or reverse the engines. We’re “lucky” there was no fire and the vessel isn’t flooded, so hopefully the cause will eventually be found.
Well we have the audio track from the bridge, the ... (show quote)


Makes one think. Who in his right mind would make a multi million dollar boat that can't be steered once the power is out, and make the steering worked only by one engine? That would be gross negligence on the designer, or gross negligence on the operator/owner of the ship, if they allowed it to travel with only one its system working.

As for the captain to overrule the pilot who was managing the emergency, well, the pilot was there for a reason. He was the captain at that moment. There is much to dig on that event that I'd not call it an accident, just yet.

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Apr 1, 2024 00:24:31   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
FrumCA wrote:
The professional pilots who were operating the ship were experienced navigating the waters in and around the Baltimore Harbor and Francis Scott Key Bridge. They would not have been operating at an unsafe speed.


As aforementioned, I could be wrong and good investigations hopefully finds the fault and gets mitigated.

There is the human factor that can not be put aside. Sometimes, the routine makes one complacent, pushing things to their limit because nothing bad happened. He might have done that speed many times, unsafely and the dice roll just caught up with him. Who knows?
Maybe he was under pressure to get to the shore as fast as possible or just getting a bad case of "gethometitis" that he disregard some safety buffers. Again who knows?

One thing I know, A true professional equipment operator always take many things in consideration, topmost of which is safety. There is always a preparation or adjustments to the prevailing condition. A highway may be marked 100mph, but would you drive that fast in icy road conditions? Did the Pilot knew the ship is being operated without any safety backups for its system? If he knew, would he still run it at the allowed speed limit or would he creep that hulk into the harbor so that an anchor drop could stop it on time?

Again as mentioned, only a good investigation will resolve the whole thing. For now, we just ask and discuss in retrospect.

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Apr 1, 2024 00:41:18   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
dustie wrote:
A powerless, 100's of tons, floating piece of real estate a little larger than three American football fields pushed along by the water current......no propulsion, no steering, no braking through any type of reverse thrust, no parking brake like a land-based vehicle, no rolling friction like a land based vehicle, just a massive, commercial cork bobbing along in the unrelenting flow of the water current like the unforgiving movement of a landslide crushing anything in its path, like a massive ice floe unforgivingly pushed down a river during an ice breakup, anchors that may slightly slow the massive cork.....

.......suggestions?.....should the crew run down and drag their heels on the water for brakes, like a scooter or skateboard rider may do on pavement?

Those crew members more than had their hands full of a great big handful of nothing when it came to options to exert control over that conveyor of a river carrying them in its massive, massive grasp, and an equally great big handful of nothing in options to exert control over that dead in the water mass of around 3½ acres+ in footprint size.

They did well in an extremely tiny window of time, to communicate to authorities who had to navigate the canyons of different emergency agencies on different radio frequencies clearly enough to get land-based responses in action to get the area as clear of human lives as possible.

They were like dust in the wind when it came to directing anything about the water flow and the crippled small town of merchandise they were riding.
A powerless, 100's of tons, floating piece of real... (show quote)


I'm not suggesting anything. Where did that thought came from?

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Apr 1, 2024 03:12:07   #
dustie Loc: Nose to the grindstone
 
Wallen wrote:
I'm not suggesting anything. Where did that thought came from?


Wallen wrote:
"Common sense says they should have slowed down."

Suggestions for how to do it: how to quickly slow down.
Operating in normal manner at a speed that is not excessive, and is enough to permit steering a vessel like that.

Suggestions how to slow down and maintain steerability, steering response.

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Apr 1, 2024 03:17:28   #
dustie Loc: Nose to the grindstone
 
Wallen wrote:
As aforementioned, I could be wrong and good investigations hopefully finds the fault and gets mitigated.

There is the human factor that can not be put aside. Sometimes, the routine makes one complacent, pushing things to their limit because nothing bad happened. He might have done that speed many times, unsafely and the dice roll just caught up with him. Who knows?
Maybe he was under pressure to get to the shore as fast as possible or just getting a bad case of "gethometitis" that he disregard some safety buffers. Again who knows?

One thing I know, A true professional equipment operator always take many things in consideration, topmost of which is safety. There is always a preparation or adjustments to the prevailing condition. A highway may be marked 100mph, but would you drive that fast in icy road conditions? Did the Pilot knew the ship is being operated without any safety backups for its system? If he knew, would he still run it at the allowed speed limit or would he creep that hulk into the harbor so that an anchor drop could stop it on time?

Again as mentioned, only a good investigation will resolve the whole thing. For now, we just ask and discuss in retrospect.
As aforementioned, I could be wrong and good inves... (show quote)


What was missing that leads to the claim, "without any safety backups"?

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Apr 1, 2024 10:19:02   #
srt101fan
 
Wallen wrote:
Makes one think. Who in his right mind would make a multi million dollar boat that can't be steered once the power is out, and make the steering worked only by one engine? That would be gross negligence on the designer, or gross negligence on the operator/owner of the ship, if they allowed it to travel with only one its system working.

As for the captain to overrule the pilot who was managing the emergency, well, the pilot was there for a reason. He was the captain at that moment. There is much to dig on that event that I'd not call it an accident, just yet.
Makes one think. Who in his right mind would make ... (show quote)


Another fine example of irresponsible pronouncements based on ignorance and fuzzy thinking....

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Apr 1, 2024 10:32:05   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
srt101fan wrote:
Another fine example of irresponsible pronouncements based on ignorance and fuzzy thinking....


It’s what he does.

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Apr 1, 2024 11:48:04   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
Wallen wrote:
Makes one think. Who in his right mind would make a multi million dollar boat that can't be steered once the power is out, and make the steering worked only by one engine? That would be gross negligence on the designer, or gross negligence on the operator/owner of the ship, if they allowed it to travel with only one its system working.

As for the captain to overrule the pilot who was managing the emergency, well, the pilot was there for a reason. He was the captain at that moment. There is much to dig on that event that I'd not call it an accident, just yet.
Makes one think. Who in his right mind would make ... (show quote)


There is no use moving the rudder if you have power. The rudder deflects the water by its thrust.
The pilot does not get replaced by the captain he advises the captain.
When an investigation is completed many of our arm chair nautical engineers will be able to know what happened based on expertise not conjecture.

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Apr 1, 2024 12:23:25   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
dwmoar wrote:
Wow, Your post didn't age well.... Jumping to conclusions is a specialty I see.


There are now 3 large cranes onsite, and a 200 ton piece was cut loose and removed yesterday.

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Apr 1, 2024 12:32:05   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Wallen wrote:
Makes one think. Who in his right mind would make a multi million dollar boat that can't be steered once the power is out, and make the steering worked only by one engine? That would be gross negligence on the designer, or gross negligence on the operator/owner of the ship, if they allowed it to travel with only one its system working.

As for the captain to overrule the pilot who was managing the emergency, well, the pilot was there for a reason. He was the captain at that moment. There is much to dig on that event that I'd not call it an accident, just yet.
Makes one think. Who in his right mind would make ... (show quote)


Electrical power is required for all large boat steering. It controls the hydraulics that control the rudder. There are typically 3 diesel electrical generators plus a backup, so there is plenty of redundancy.

The captain (master) of a vessel always has the final authority and responsibility for the vessel. The pilot is on board to assist in navigation.

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