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Equivalent focal length - a more correct way to compare
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Mar 30, 2024 09:06:03   #
cdayton
 
I’m interested in what “more correct” means?

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Mar 30, 2024 09:09:16   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
a6k wrote:
I used two cameras+lenses:

Sony 𝜶6500 with Minolta 500/8 AF Reflex (EXIF reports 496 mm = 744) The lens is fixed length.
Sony RX10 IV with 220 mm lens (EXIF reports 220 mm=600). The zoom lens is not interchangeable.

Using a tripod, I shot the same target at the same distance with the RX10 at longest setting (Minolta is a prime). The picture, exposure, etc. are not important because the dimensions of the lenses, sensors and distance to target are the only things being compared.

744 / 600 = 1.24 so if the equivalent focal length were really only about the physical size of the sensor, the displayed image from the 𝜶6500 would be 1.24 times the size of the one from the RX10 IV.

Skip the math. The screenshot shown here tells me that in order to make the shot taken with the RX10 IV as large as the one taken with the 𝜶6500 + Minolta 500 it was necessary to increase the smaller image by 49%.

If we care about what the equivalent focal length means then either the 𝜶6500 is 894 or the RX10 is 499.
Of course, the truth could be some mixture/hybrid of the two discrepancies.

It's a shame there is no standard to use for pixels per mm on the sensor so all we can do is compare lens and sensor combinations to each other. The discrepancy here appears to be the difference in pixels per mm in the horizontal dimension of the sensor.

The second screenshot that I added as an edit shows the RX10 shot with one using the 𝜶6500 with a Sony 70-400 on which the EXIF says 400=600. Same two cameras, supposed to be the same equivalent length. Twelve % difference.
I used two cameras+lenses: br br Sony 𝜶6500 with... (show quote)


All I know is the entertainment value of this post far outweighs any practical value it may have !

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Mar 30, 2024 09:16:07   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Steve DeMott wrote:
The only thing that matters is this. If the photo you end with looks like what you envisioned form the start looks the same, who cares what shutter speed, focal length, f-stop, ISO or camera you use.


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Mar 30, 2024 09:16:33   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
imagemeister wrote:
All I know is the entertainment value of this post far outweighs any practical value it may have !


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Mar 30, 2024 09:19:02   #
User ID
 
Longshadow wrote:
Then to some, it don't...

But he says math matters, at least to him.

Yet his math is gibberish, just some parroted gumbo of math-like jargon, full of sound and fury yet signifying nothing. At least thaz how AI would say it !!! Alas, poor Yurik ......

He thinks he sounds more smarterer if he says "the square of". Sound fancier. Acoarst it just happens to be a linear relationship, but that would be too pedestrian, far below his level of "geniusness in his own mind".

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Mar 30, 2024 09:31:43   #
Jack 13088 Loc: Central NY
 
jerryc41 wrote:
This seems to be a very contentious topic. I wish camera makers could have thought of a better way to state the focal length for the various sensors. Someone will post something about the focal length he used, and someone else will say he's incorrect. It's the "equivalent" focal length. Does it really matter? No. You select your lens or your zoom length, and you take a picture.

A similar topic is "depth of field." That's been beaten to death, but it keeps coming back to life. Something is either in focus or it isn't.
This seems to be a very contentious topic. I wish... (show quote)


Nothing could be “better” than the actual focal length of a lens. I don’t understand how fussing about equivalent focal length, crop factor or megapixels produces a better photograph. Take camera and lens out of its display case and actually take photos process them, view result on screen or print and see what emotional response you get. Wash, rinse and repeat. Just saying.

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Mar 30, 2024 09:36:03   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Jack 13088 wrote:
Nothing could be “better” than the actual focal length of a lens. I don’t understand how fussing about equivalent focal length, crop factor or megapixels produces a better photograph. Take camera and lens out of its display case and actually take photos process them, view result on screen or print and see what emotional response you get. Wash, rinse and repeat. Just saying.


I usually forget that my main camera is an APSC format, I just compose and shoot.
No idea what is in the H-1, don't care, it's a camera too.

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Mar 30, 2024 09:52:54   #
BebuLamar
 
Jack 13088 wrote:
Nothing could be “better” than the actual focal length of a lens. I don’t understand how fussing about equivalent focal length, crop factor or megapixels produces a better photograph. Take camera and lens out of its display case and actually take photos process them, view result on screen or print and see what emotional response you get. Wash, rinse and repeat. Just saying.


About the only time I have to use the 35mm equivalent focal length because many manufacturers don't tell you how big the sensor is in their P&S cameras. I found this information is hard to find.

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Mar 30, 2024 10:41:05   #
a6k Loc: Detroit & Sanibel
 
Thank you all for your (perhaps) accurate but trivial critiques of my simple demonstration. Let’s skip to the "thought experiment".

Let us use one lens. 100 mm prime, for example.
Let us use two cameras. For example, Sony A7Riv and A7iv

The A7Riv has a horizontal pixel count of 8448 pixels.
The a7iv has 7008.

They have the same aspect ratio.

They are both full frame sensors. The EXIF will report the same equivalent focal length for both. The angle of view is the same. The physical size of the image on the sensor is the same.

Take a picture with each of the same subject when focused at the same distance. Use infinity if you prefer. Use the same exposure and ISO.

View the pictures on the same monitor at the same screen resolution: use 100% for the A7Riv. You will need to use 8448/7008 = 120.5% to get the same on-screen image size for the A7iv.

If you want to print, then if you use the same relationship of pixels to dots for both prints the same ratio will apply.

Is it clear yet?

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Mar 30, 2024 11:08:35   #
Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV
 
I'm glad I just take pictures!!!

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Mar 30, 2024 11:40:26   #
EJMcD
 
Retired CPO wrote:
I'm glad I just take pictures!!!



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Mar 30, 2024 11:57:21   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
Longshadow wrote:


"Standard" focal length on a 35mm was selected as 50mm. It makes something that is 20 feet away in real life look 20 feet away in the picture. Little or no subject magnification (positive or negative).
Less than 50mm pushes the subject back, greater than 50 brings it closer.
"Standard" for different <film/sensor> formats is different, that's why they use a conversion.
Base reference is the 35mm film format.
img src="https://static.uglyhedgehog.com/images/s... (show quote)



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Mar 30, 2024 12:14:42   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
a6k wrote:
Thank you all for your (perhaps) accurate but trivial critiques of my simple demonstration. Let’s skip to the "thought experiment".

Let us use one lens. 100 mm prime, for example.
Let us use two cameras. For example, Sony A7Riv and A7iv

The A7Riv has a horizontal pixel count of 8448 pixels.
The a7iv has 7008.

They have the same aspect ratio.

They are both full frame sensors. The EXIF will report the same equivalent focal length for both. The angle of view is the same. The physical size of the image on the sensor is the same.

Take a picture with each of the same subject when focused at the same distance. Use infinity if you prefer. Use the same exposure and ISO.

View the pictures on the same monitor at the same screen resolution: use 100% for the A7Riv. You will need to use 8448/7008 = 120.5% to get the same on-screen image size for the A7iv.

If you want to print, then if you use the same relationship of pixels to dots for both prints the same ratio will apply.

Is it clear yet?
Thank you all for your (perhaps) accurate but triv... (show quote)


SO WHAT ! - This has NOTHING to do with focal length, equivalent FL OR FOV ! ! 8-(

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Mar 30, 2024 12:38:56   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
jerryc41 wrote:
This seems to be a very contentious topic. I wish camera makers could have thought of a better way to state the focal length for the various sensors. Someone will post something about the focal length he used, and someone else will say he's incorrect. It's the "equivalent" focal length. Does it really matter? No. You select your lens or your zoom length, and you take a picture.

A similar topic is "depth of field." That's been beaten to death, but it keeps coming back to life. Something is either in focus or it isn't.
This seems to be a very contentious topic. I wish... (show quote)


It will keep coming back as long as people keep mentioning it.

---

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Mar 30, 2024 12:51:58   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Can you give me an example of when equivalent focal length needs to be that precise?


I was thinking the same thing. What's important isn't the absolute comparison, but that we each get familiar with the equipment we use and apply it to the task at hand in a satisfying manner.

I use Micro 4/3, which has a nominal 2X magnification factor (not a crop factor, because the lenses are NATIVE to the format, unlike putting a full frame lens on APS-C). But I've used other formats, and understand the lens choices I needed to make for each of them.

In the photo lab where I worked back in the film days, we had equivalence charts that matched focal length and field of view coverage across both film formats and brands of lenses. They were helpful. Also helpful were depth of field indicators on lenses, which have all but disappeared. Now I carry the DOFC (depth of field calculator) app on my phone for the rare instances when I need to be precise.

We worry far too much about finding the perfect camera, lens, brand, format... When simple photographic education and experiences are what we need. I learn more behind the camera or in front of photo software than I do from endless debates about what gizmo is best. The proof is in the photograph.

I cook, and I don't know that anyone has ever asked me what pot or pan I used... Either they like the dish, or they don't.

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