Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
Boeing Bashing
Page <<first <prev 4 of 6 next> last>>
Mar 16, 2024 16:42:48   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Dikdik wrote:
There has been a great improvement in companies looking after safety since this legislation. In addition, I don't know what the circumstances were, but there could be negligence.

But it is very hard on the supervisors/managers, they do worry..... gives many of them premature aging.
It's impossible to make the linemen aware of every possible scenario they may encounter.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 16:55:02   #
Red6
 
ecblackiii wrote:
You obviously do not understand how large, world-class corporations must operate. The "direction for the actions" does not come from the Board. Board member responsibility is established in law. The board meets for a few hours quarterly and reviews program and financial data. It then discusses and votes on major policy proposals brought forth by senior management--things like starting or closing a product line, building a new plant or selling/closing an existing one, major outsourcing or insourcing decisions, changes to pension plans, hiring or firing senior executives etc. It isn't and can't possibly be involved in the day-to-day engineering, manufacturing, purchasing, sales, or administration operations. Between the Board and the first line worker are several layers of management who must daily implement the generalized policies through development of detailed guidelines and job instructions. Every level of management has its specific responsibilities for everything under its control, to include safety.

I'm glad that Canadian construction safety "suddenly" increased when managers became responsible. They should have been accountable all along.
You obviously do not understand how large, world-c... (show quote)


I absolutely believe a company should make a profit to thrive and be successful. However, the company and its upper management must also accept the responsibility of doing what is not only best for the company but also what is best for its customers.

It is now clear through Boeing documents that upper management knew of the issues concerning MCAS and approved of the decisions not to mention it to the airlines and pilots when including it in the 737 MAX. They also knew that it was likely that MCAS had played a role in the Lion and Ethiopian air crashes but chose to misdirect shift responsibility onto the airline and pilots. Even after MCAS was cited as a possible cause, Boeing chose to continue to offer misinformation and denial. It was only after all the damning evidence came out that they finally accepted some responsibility.

As far as profits go, Boeing was a profitable company before the McDonnell Douglas merger when quality was still more important than share price. It was after the merger that Boeing started running into problems with technical and quality issues after downsizing their workforce and quality departments.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 16:59:00   #
ecblackiii Loc: Maryland
 
Red6 wrote:
I absolutely believe a company should make a profit to thrive and be successful. However, the company and its upper management must also accept the responsibility of doing what is not only best for the company but also what is best for its customers.

It is now clear through Boeing documents that upper management knew of the issues concerning MCAS and approved of the decisions not to mention it to the airlines and pilots when including it in the 737 MAX. They also knew that it was likely that MCAS had played a role in the Lion and Ethiopian air crashes but chose to misdirect shift responsibility onto the airline and pilots. Even after MCAS was cited as a possible cause, Boeing chose to continue to offer misinformation and denial. It was only after all the damning evidence came out that they finally accepted some responsibility.

As far as profits go, Boeing was a profitable company before the McDonnell Douglas merger when quality was still more important than share price. It was after the merger that Boeing started running into problems with technical and quality issues after downsizing their workforce and quality departments.
I absolutely believe a company should make a profi... (show quote)


Would you please share with me the Boeing documents that show "upper management knew of the issues concerning MCAS and approved of the decisions not to mention it to the airlines and pilots when including it in the 737 MAX." I have not seen any such documents and would like to see exactly what they say.

Reply
 
 
Mar 16, 2024 17:18:50   #
dustie Loc: Nose to the grindstone
 
marine73 wrote:
That flight was scheduled for Denver and had to divert to Medford.


Please post a link to reporting of that.
So far I find no reporting of a diversion of that flight for any reason. It is reported it landed in Medford, on a scheduled flight, a few minutes ahead of schedule.

From any reports I find, the missing panel caused no problems in flight, nothing indicated to the pilots it was missing.

It was not even known that panel was missing until the post-flight/ pre-flight inspection before the aircraft was moved back from the gate in Medford to continue on in its regularly scheduled flights, no word of diversion from a Denver route.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 17:28:38   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
And the main problem may not be in the factory but in the individual airline's maintenance.
My father was a ground crew foreman and union official for the old Eastern Airlines at Lambert Field in St Louis. They often had to send some of their guys to retrain and upgrade the work of ground crews at other airports when they failed the reviews of the quality of their work. It almost always came down to someone trying to save money by having too few workers or allowing too short a time for each job.
Second was having some ordering subpar replacement parts from a cheaper third party. And that was often caused by overpricing by parts suppliers. Once it was a case of some vital bolts that held on engine housings and aircraft body panels costing over $100 each when ordered by the airline (and Air Force also) but the same company's bolts sold in a local hardware store were 35¢. And well over 50% of the hardware store bolts could pass the spec test for aircraft use.
Buying hundreds/thousands of them at 35¢ and having a few guys with the testing machines sort them out would have been a lot cheaper. Then use the rejected bolts for doors in buildings, ground vehicles etc. - they were a very common size bolt.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 17:35:27   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
robertjerl wrote:
And the main problem may not be in the factory but in the individual airline's maintenance.
...

Exactly.

But all the people who don't know the whole story are trying to figure out where to put the blame...

21st century witch hunts?

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 17:41:48   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
Longshadow wrote:
But it is very hard on the supervisors/managers, they do worry..... gives many of them premature aging. It's impossible to make the linemen aware of every possible scenario they may encounter.


It's all part of due diligence and training. These can be easily demonstrated to the court. The end result is that safety has impoved, which was the intent of the legislation.

Reply
 
 
Mar 16, 2024 18:41:03   #
Red6
 
ecblackiii wrote:
Would you please share with me the Boeing documents that show "upper management knew of the issues concerning MCAS and approved of the decisions not to mention it to the airlines and pilots when including it in the 737 MAX." I have not seen any such documents and would like to see exactly what they say.


Most of these documents should be in the Congressional Public record from the Congressional hearing by Congressman Peter DeFazio on Boeing. The New York Times also did extensive research on the 737 Max and has many of these documents they used in their findings.

Also check out the Netflix documentary Downfall: The Case Against Boeing.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 19:00:43   #
ecblackiii Loc: Maryland
 
So, you don't have and haven't even seen any of the documents that you assert as proof of your claim.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 19:26:23   #
Nigel7 Loc: Worcestershire. UK.
 
Red6 wrote:
Yes, there is a lot of Boeing bashing going on recently but much of it may be deserved. First, let me say that I have always been a Boeing supporter and thought they made the best airplanes in the world. However, things changed at Boeing after the McDonnell Douglas merger, and not for the best. Upper management changed and started cutting costs by cutting corners and people. Speed and costs became more important than quality and safety. Boeing management became obsessed with keeping and maintaining the stock prices as high as possible. Their focus shifted from keeping customers happy and safe to keeping Wall Street happy.

This was exposed after the 737 Max crashes. Documents have been released that Boeing knew (and later lied about) the possible dangers with the MCAS system. Boeing knew all along that MCAS could be a problem but hoped they could "update" it and fix the issues while the aircraft was in service. Even after the crashes and Boeing knew that MCAS was at fault, they tried to shift blame to the airline and pilots.

MCAS description or operation was not described or even mentioned in the 737 Max manuals. Pilots and FAA inspectors did not even know it existed. In fact, Boeing employees were forbidden to mention MCAS to anyone outside the company, including the FAA. This was done by Boeing to speed up the certification of the Max aircraft by telling the airlines and pilots that the 737 Max flew exactly like the older 737s and required no additional training, an expensive cost for the airlines. All this has been revealed in released Boeing documents.

The door plug on Alaskan Airlines appears to be much the same. Boeing's first response was to blame its fuselage builders, Spirit Aerosystems, for shoddy build quality and poor quality control. Recently obtained documents now reveal that Boeing itself removed the door plug at its facility in Seattle and failed to reinstall the bolts that held the door in place. It also violated its own quality policies by NOT properly documenting the action of the door plug removal and replacement. Proper documentation would have ensured that an inspection of the reinstallation of the door plug would have taken place and the missing bolts would have been discovered. But this never happened.

Again, I am a Boeing supporter, and I truly hope they get their act together, but when they lie about their operations, and hide problems while not accepting responsibility for their actions, this becomes a huge problem for me. This is especially true when people's lives hang in the balance. These actions tell me they value money or share prices over the lives of the people who fly in and on their airplanes.

Management issues may also be apparent in other Boeing projects. The 777-9, the Air Force KC-46, and the Boeing Starliner commercial spacecraft have all experienced quality issues delaying their deliveries. I am sure regulators and customers of these aircraft are taking a much closer view of Boeing after the recent events.
Yes, there is a lot of Boeing bashing going on rec... (show quote)



Recent news regarding Boeing has been really scary and I shall certainly be looking for airlines that use Airbus until Boeing gets its quality control sorted. I wonder how many people who still support Boeing, despite the numerous safety breaches, actually regularly fly themselves. Loyalty to major US manufacturers is fine up to a point but that point has been thoroughly breached recently.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 20:06:21   #
twb930s Loc: Aldie, Virginia
 
Longshadow wrote:
DETAILS are not as important as reporting the "NEWS".

Band wagons are popular.

Retraction? Old news , new stuff is available.

Too many people jump to <erroneous> conclusions any more.

Sad, isn't it.


The TRUTH isn't as important as reporting the news...

Reply
 
 
Mar 16, 2024 20:10:23   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
twb930s wrote:
The TRUTH isn't as important as reporting the news...

Sadly......

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 20:13:42   #
ecblackiii Loc: Maryland
 
Nigel7 wrote:
Recent news regarding Boeing has been really scary and I shall certainly be looking for airlines that use Airbus until Boeing gets its quality control sorted. I wonder how many people who still support Boeing, despite the numerous safety breaches, actually regularly fly themselves. Loyalty to major US manufacturers is fine up to a point but that point has been thoroughly breached recently.


As if a resident of the UK doesn't have loyalty to the European-made Airbus unless a family member flies a Boeing?

Airbus and Boeing both make good airplanes. But, the last time I checked, there were more airlines flying Boeing planes than Airbus. And there were more Boeing planes flying than Airbus.

Reply
Mar 16, 2024 23:38:05   #
Chiroman8
 
Longshadow wrote:
DETAILS are not as important as reporting the "NEWS".

Band wagons are popular.

Retraction? Old news , new stuff is available.

Too many people jump to <erroneous> conclusions any more.

Sad, isn't it.


Dear Longfellow,

How true your statement is and it is sad !

Reply
Mar 17, 2024 07:33:03   #
starlifter Loc: Towson, MD
 
What happened to the meal?

Reply
Page <<first <prev 4 of 6 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.