Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Proprietary RAW vs DNG
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
Feb 15, 2024 21:57:00   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
I believe that dng is a container file. That means that it is not always a raw file. It may contain the raw data when an original raw file is converted to dng but not necessarily when editing software is transferring an image to other software.


RAW (sensor) data is read-only. A wrapper around RAW data continues to maintain that read-only payload, with Adobe's 'wrapper' data over the image payload, including Adobe's decisions about what camera EXIF to maintain, and then Adobe's edit instructions of how to render that RAW payload. Others mimicking (following) Adobe's DNG wrapper may / may not instruct Adobe software to the same level of detail. The larger community has noted Topaz Lab's failure at the DNG 'check digit', something that generates a warning in Adobe, although no actual functionality issues.

Reply
Feb 15, 2024 22:47:25   #
bsprague Loc: Lacey, WA, USA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
If we think about how Topaz uses DNG to edit RAW first and pass those edits back into LR or PS, this is another 'serious' and 'useful' implementation. So, it's not that DNG doesn't have uses. Rather, default conversion and replacement of proprietary RAW with DNG is where Adobe pushed 'industry standard' too far for the industry to agree / adopt.


"where Adobe pushed 'industry standard' too far"

I've been using Lightroom since Version 4. I don't remember any "pushing". When did they do that and to whom?

Reply
Feb 15, 2024 23:00:56   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
DNG is an overall waste of time. This was Adobe's effort to try to take over the market. It failed, mostly because Adobe was forced by the market to provide support for 'native format' RAW files from all the relevant camera manufacturers.

The idea that a DNG is smaller is true only until the Adobe software begins to write their edit instructions into the DNG. Then, these files will tend to get larger.

How does a DNG get smaller than the RAW? By Adobe striping the camera EXIF from the RAW and replacing with Adobe's own EXIF, a mixture of original data, the removal of some of the original camera data, and then Adobe's start-point for their Adobe-specific EXIF.

When you let Adobe remove camera EXIF, you tend to lose the ability to analyze the technical details of the AF configuration using the native camera software. This is especially true if you convert to DNG and discard the original RAW.

The fact that Adobe must support the original (aka native) RAW format, as well as all the players in the digital editor market, pretty much confirms the DNG conversion is a waste of time. The camera manufacturers flatly rejected the idea of outputting DNG from their cameras instead of RAW sensor data. Adobe is big, but not big enough to tell / force the digital camera industry what to do with their cameras.

If you convert to DNG and discard the RAW, well now you're locked-into Adobe and / or software that fully supports the DNG, pretty much only Adobe. That's what Adobe really wants....
DNG is an overall waste of time. This was Adobe's ... (show quote)
Often one of the first several replies completely answers the OP's questions. As does this one. Well done.

Reply
 
 
Feb 16, 2024 05:57:22   #
tcthome Loc: NJ
 
bsprague wrote:
"The fact that it was rejected by nearly all Camera manufacturers essentially means that DNG is an anomaly as an unneeded intermediate step. There is no benefit."

"This was Adobe's effort to try to take over the market. It failed, mostly because Adobe was forced by the market to provide support for 'native format' RAW files from all the relevant camera manufacturers."

My understanding is that Adobe created DNG in public domain. I have four cameras that use DNG. Three come from DJI who sells a wide variety of unique flying, action and stabilzed cameras. The fourth is my year old Samsung phone.

It would be fun to know actual unit sales numbers, but between DJI and Samsung phones, I'd conclude that Adobe's DNG program is doing well.
"The fact that it was rejected by nearly all ... (show quote)


Maybe Leica produces DNG raw files. C1 processes them better according to some Leica sellers/users.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 08:12:13   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
bsprague wrote:
"where Adobe pushed 'industry standard' too far"

I've been using Lightroom since Version 4. I don't remember any "pushing". When did they do that and to whom?


When Adobe and their influencer army began suggesting to default convert RAW files to DNG was the moment they pushed too far. Rightfully, the majority dismissing this ridiculous idea prevailed.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 08:19:08   #
Red6
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
DNG is an overall waste of time. This was Adobe's effort to try to take over the market. It failed, mostly because Adobe was forced by the market to provide support for 'native format' RAW files from all the relevant camera manufacturers.

The idea that a DNG is smaller is true only until the Adobe software begins to write their edit instructions into the DNG. Then, these files will tend to get larger.

How does a DNG get smaller than the RAW? By Adobe striping the camera EXIF from the RAW and replacing with Adobe's own EXIF, a mixture of original data, the removal of some of the original camera data, and then Adobe's start-point for their Adobe-specific EXIF.

When you let Adobe remove camera EXIF, you tend to lose the ability to analyze the technical details of the AF configuration using the native camera software. This is especially true if you convert to DNG and discard the original RAW.

The fact that Adobe must support the original (aka native) RAW format, as well as all the players in the digital editor market, pretty much confirms the DNG conversion is a waste of time. The camera manufacturers flatly rejected the idea of outputting DNG from their cameras instead of RAW sensor data. Adobe is big, but not big enough to tell / force the digital camera industry what to do with their cameras.

If you convert to DNG and discard the RAW, well now you're locked-into Adobe and / or software that fully supports the DNG, pretty much only Adobe. That's what Adobe really wants....
DNG is an overall waste of time. This was Adobe's ... (show quote)


I think CHG_CANON's point is dead on. Nothing is gained by converting the native RAW to DNG before starting the edit process. It it is simply an unnecessary step WHEN the software will use the NATIVE RAW files just a efficiently.

However, that does not mean DNG is useless. If the camera or drone uses DNG as its native RAW format then it is simply processed in that manner. Maybe the manufacturers of those devices did not want to spend the extra time, money, or software efforts to develop their own native format and simply used the non-proprietary DNG format.

I am sure that if all imaging companies had adopted DNG as the "standard" most of the companies such as Canon, Nikon, Sony etc. would have made changes to it to meet their own needs. Much like the standard RS-232 serial port standard years ago or Android OS today. These are all touted as standards but each device manufacturer of these devices makes changes and tweaks making them only semi-compatible.

Adobe would still have had to make changes and adapt their software to be able to process Canon DNG, Nikon DNG, and so on. That would make the "standard" a moot point.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 08:41:12   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
When Adobe and their influencer army began suggesting to default convert RAW files to DNG was the moment they pushed too far. Rightfully, the majority dismissing this ridiculous idea prevailed.



Reply
 
 
Feb 16, 2024 09:27:08   #
DaveyDitzer Loc: Western PA
 
yssirk123 wrote:
I prefer to save the native file format in it's original form and edit from there.


I was good until my latest camera (MILC) and my PS couldn't deal with the RAW and I was forced to use DNG as an intermediate step. Not ready to update my PS programs just yet.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 09:41:57   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
DaveyDitzer wrote:
I was good until my latest camera (MILC) and my PS couldn't deal with the RAW and I was forced to use DNG as an intermediate step. Not ready to update my PS programs just yet.


Oh well ... you surely knew a new camera for the RAW shooter means new software. You've been on UHH too long to now feign ignorance of the issue.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 09:57:30   #
47greyfox Loc: on the edge of the Colorado front range
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
If you convert to DNG and discard the RAW, well now you're locked-into Adobe and / or software that fully supports the DNG, pretty much only Adobe. That's what Adobe really wants....


Paul, I use ON1 PR for editing. It works fine with DNG files as well as most camera output formats. Is there something about “fully supports” that we should know?

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 10:03:09   #
jackpi Loc: Southwest Ohio
 
montephoto wrote:
I didn't want to hijack a different thread, so I started this new one:

I have shot all of my images in RAW for many years as a pro.

I convert the files to DNG upon download. DNG file are "slightly" smaller than NEF.
However, I have found that is not necessarily true for Canon files.
I am seeing posts telling others to use the proprietary/native RAW setting over using DNG.

After years of use I don't know of any disadvantages of DNG, but I like the advantage of the sidecar (.xmp)
being incorporated inside the DNG format so that it isn't lost or disassociated.
Other than that, I don't know of the advantages.

What are the explicit advantages of using the proprietary RAW vs DNG? CHG_Canon has mentioned this before.

Let's all keep it civil.
I didn't want to hijack a different thread, so I s... (show quote)

When I began digital photography, I converted my RAW files to DNG. About a year later, I tried to move my workflow from Lightroom to Capture One. Surprise! Capture One could not handle Adobe DNG files and neither could some other photography applications. Another surprise: Capture One could handle DNG files created by other camera companies as their RAW format (Leica). All DNG formats are not equal. I no longer convert to Adobe DNG for that reason.

Reply
 
 
Feb 16, 2024 10:06:38   #
DaveyDitzer Loc: Western PA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Oh well ... you surely knew a new camera for the RAW shooter means new software. You've been on UHH too long to now feign ignorance of the issue.


I was not feigning ignorance, just noting a fact.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 10:08:50   #
photoman43
 
montephoto wrote:
I didn't want to hijack a different thread, so I started this new one:

I have shot all of my images in RAW for many years as a pro.

I convert the files to DNG upon download. DNG file are "slightly" smaller than NEF.
However, I have found that is not necessarily true for Canon files.
I am seeing posts telling others to use the proprietary/native RAW setting over using DNG.

After years of use I don't know of any disadvantages of DNG, but I like the advantage of the sidecar (.xmp)
being incorporated inside the DNG format so that it isn't lost or disassociated.
Other than that, I don't know of the advantages.

What are the explicit advantages of using the proprietary RAW vs DNG? CHG_Canon has mentioned this before.

Let's all keep it civil.
I didn't want to hijack a different thread, so I s... (show quote)


I use the native RAW file (NEF for me as I shoot Nikon). Sidecar files can accompany NEF files and be read (partially or fully) by the post processing program depending on the program. I see no need for DNG files in my workflow. If I ever had DNG files I would never discard the original RAW file.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 10:38:14   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
47greyfox wrote:
Paul, I use ON1 PR for editing. It works fine with DNG files as well as most camera output formats. Is there something about “fully supports” that we should know?


Try transferring edited DNGs between software products, then decide who provides fully supports the others in their treatment and understanding of the edit instructions inside that DNG. See photoman43's comment above, as that is another flavor of the same issue.

Reply
Feb 16, 2024 10:48:24   #
DaveyDitzer Loc: Western PA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Oh well ... you surely knew a new camera for the RAW shooter means new software. You've been on UHH too long to now feign ignorance of the issue.


You sometimes remind me of one of my chemistry professors from whom I learned a lot but who occasionally, just occasionally, found it difficult to be unfailingly kind:)

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.