To my knowledge, United Airlines routinely DID NOT verifyBoeing inspections.
jerryc41 wrote:
I doubt that all these YouTubers agreed to tell the same lies about Boeing. It was Boeing's lies and omissions that resulted in the deaths of 346 people. After the first crash, Boeing said nothing about MCAS, just "pilot error."
Boeing made sure that there was no mention of the MCAS system in their manuals. Even after the two crashes, they tried to lie their way out of responsibility. Watch the video I linked above. The FAA wasn't much help, either, letting Boeing inspect itself.
I doubt that all these YouTubers agreed to tell th... (
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We have another quality assurance,/control issue with those two737's. The software obviously controlled the aircraft once it determined the airspeed was too low and caused the aircraft to go into a dive to gain airspeed. Lack of airspeed is definitely a serious matter and the pilot has to take immediate action. The aircraft were lacking adequate altitude for the action the computer took.
A software rewrite is in order. (And was probably done). If Software Quality had done their job, they would have required the software to prevent the possibility of diving below a certain altitude above the ground.
"If altitude is less than 'xx,xxx" feet (meters) and airspeed is less than "xxx" then alert the pilot else dive to regain airspeed.
A simple "If then else" software test.
I know my comment here is too simplistic, but I doubt they had something in their coding to represent that.
I was on a software development team that developed software for targeting munitions strikes. A product of a different company was praised for their ability to do one shot one kill. They said we get our targeting information from XYZ products because they have superior software. I was only a contributor.
Flash Gordon wrote:
I ... Do the airlines which have purchased these airplanes not have maintenance crews? ...
Yes, but inspecting the door plug (not a door per se) would be after a lot of flight hours (years, I would think), like the fuselage and other structural parts that are meant to last years.
Of course, the airlines ARE inspecting all those door plugs now, on the news they said it takes up to 18 hours and 3 or 4 mechanics to do it!
jerryc41 wrote:
You might think that I'm anti-Boeing, but I'm not. Boeing has been getting lots of negative press for years, and for good reason. One of the YouTube channels I watch regularly is Maximus Aviation. Last night, I watched one of his videos that gave a very good summary of Boeing from its heyday as "King of the World" to a company that can't be trusted. Below is a link to a very good summary of Boeing from then to now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOBxT2q4_-YAdmittedly "can't be trusted" is a bit of a generalization but the evidence is there to support it in this video as well as news reports, FAA reports, GAO reports, etc. The 737 Max is a good example of Boeing shifting from good engineering, to profit-based decision making. The FAA is partly to blame for allowing Boeing to self-certify although I wouldn't be surprised if the FAA lacks personnel and resources to properly inspect all phases of plane construction. Once again though, it shows how businesses cannot be trusted to "self regulate" when it comes to safety, quality control and environmental regulations. Without getting too political, it shows we need a third party (FAA, EPA, OSHA, etc.) to protect us.
fourlocks wrote:
Admittedly "can't be trusted" is a bit of a generalization but the evidence is there to support it in this video as well as news reports, FAA reports, GAO reports, etc. The 737 Max is a good example of Boeing shifting from good engineering, to profit-based decision making. The FAA is partly to blame for allowing Boeing to self-certify although I wouldn't be surprised if the FAA lacks personnel and resources to properly inspect all phases of plane construction. Once again though, it shows how businesses cannot be trusted to "self regulate" when it comes to safety, quality control and environmental regulations. Without getting too political, it shows we need a third party (FAA, EPA, OSHA, etc.) to protect us.
Admittedly "can't be trusted" is a bit o... (
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From what I've seen and read, the 737 is such an old design that Boeing is having trouble getting it to meet modern requirements. If they had started with a clean sheet, designing from scratch, many of their problems could have been avoided.
The problem is worse... it's a systemic failure. There is a total lack of accountability. There can be a condo failure in Florida, and 100 people are killed, several hundred killed from Boeing air crashes, and no one's feet are held to the fire.
Company boards are pressing for ever increasing profits and there is no downside for their action. They, and those they employ, have to be held criminally responsible for their decisions. Only when this type of result occurs will you notice an improvement.
Without getting political, one of the few legitimate reasons for a government is to look after the long term interests of the people; they have failed in this regard. To reiterate, the problem is systemic.
jerryc41 wrote:
From what I've seen and read, the 737 is such an old design that Boeing is having trouble getting it to meet modern requirements. If they had started with a clean sheet, designing from scratch, many of their problems could have been avoided.
Yes the 737 is an old design that I believe came out in the 60's, Boeing keeps doing upgrades/updates to its design. The design started with the -100,then -200 and went sequential through the -9, -9er and -9max. Boeing is also doing a -10. AS far as I know there have been no -10 sales from Boeing.
As far as plug door inspections go for the max -9 it takes two techs per door (4) plus an inspector that has to be present with the techs the entire shift. it takes 8 to 12 hours to perform the inspection, then if any issues are found a send up has to be sent to Boeing and the FAA, work stops while waiting for a response, before proceeding with the fix and close up and return to service. In the mean time the routine maintenance has to be performed to keep them from going into a storage status and the airline is losing money that those aircraft would be generating. During this time United was doing voluntary inspections on the -9ER plug doors which took approx 4-8 hours to accomplish. Seats and sidewall panels did not require removal for the inspection but still required two technicians plus an inspector. The two tech were required to move the dado panels from the door area for the inspection. The seats were removed only at the request of the inspection department.
jerryc41 wrote:
You might think that I'm anti-Boeing, but I'm not. Boeing has been getting lots of negative press for years, and for good reason. One of the YouTube channels I watch regularly is Maximus Aviation. Last night, I watched one of his videos that gave a very good summary of Boeing from its heyday as "King of the World" to a company that can't be trusted. Below is a link to a very good summary of Boeing from then to now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOBxT2q4_-YI was in manufacturing for many years. I learned that a robust quality management program is essential for profits as well as reputation. I learned anther thing. If you depend on employees to use common sense, you will be disappointed. If there is potential for something to go wrong, and you don't think of it in advance, it will eventually go wrong. Another issue is, that if the provided system for doing things has a breakdown, or operational issues, some workers will "make do". That frequently results in defective work.
I spent a LOT of time telling workers to never improvise or compromise unless it is authorized by a competent manager. It is very hard, if you are in charge of a manufacturing process, to think of everything that could be misunderstood, or could go wrong. BUT, you can be absolutely sure that anything that is misunderstood, or can go wrong, will go wrong.
Common since is uncommon. Careful inspections of products, both during manufacturing and upon completion, is absolutely necessary. Good quantity of production is a great thing but good quality is EVERYTHING!
It amazes me how many things I buy are defective upon arrival.
Dikdik wrote:
The problem is worse... it's a systemic failure. There is a total lack of accountability. There can be a condo failure in Florida, and 100 people are killed, several hundred killed from Boeing air crashes, and no one's feet are held to the fire.
Company boards are pressing for ever increasing profits and there is no downside for their action. They, and those they employ, have to be held criminally responsible for their decisions. Only when this type of result occurs will you notice an improvement.
Without getting political, one of the few legitimate reasons for a government is to look after the long term interests of the people; they have failed in this regard. To reiterate, the problem is systemic.
The problem is worse... it's a systemic failure. T... (
show quote)
It's very rare for the people who actually caused the deaths to suffer anything more than a corporate fine. Their decisions and lack of action caused multiple deaths, but, oh, well, what can you do? This is an international problem. A CEO might be sentenced to prison, but the decision is always reversed. In one case, people in Japan went to prison, but that's unusual. If you watch disaster investigations on YouTube, you will see that the guilty always go free.
That's what I say, the problem is systemic. Until it's fixed, it will continue.
jerryc41 wrote:
It's very rare for the people who actually caused the deaths to suffer anything more than a corporate fine. Their decisions and lack of action caused multiple deaths, but, oh, well, what can you do? This is an international problem. A CEO might be sentenced to prison, but the decision is always reversed. In one case, people in Japan went to prison, but that's unusual. If you watch disaster investigations on YouTube, you will see that the guilty always go free.
That is why the profit is so important. If these guys mess up the profit they would surely see the door just about as bad as getting people killed.
This door plug is held by 4 bolts , now Boeing say that the bolts were not there from the beginning . The problem is that , when you put all the inside covering on , you cant tell that the bolts are not there . Maybe pressurizing the plane on the ground , you may notice some motions on the fuselage from outside .
agillot wrote:
This door plug is held by 4 bolts , now Boeing say that the bolts were not there from the beginning . The problem is that , when you put all the inside covering on , you cant tell that the bolts are not there . Maybe pressurizing the plane on the ground , you may notice some motions on the fuselage from outside .
The FAA discovered that the four bolts weren't installed. Boeing's system did not provide proper direction nor any inspection by a third party for the removal and replacement of the door.
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